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Main Boards => VGMaps Social Board => Topic started by: JonLeung on January 13, 2012, 10:03:03 PM



Title: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: JonLeung on January 13, 2012, 10:03:03 PM
This topic is for the discussion of my article here:
Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"? (http://vgmaps.com/Reviews/Editorial-DidFlipIndustriesReallyCreateSuperKidIcarus.htm)


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: alucard on January 14, 2012, 07:51:47 AM
Yes it does look the same, except for the colors change of course. Since your maps were custom, I agree that it is obviously your work. Had they used NES maps it would be easy to say they came from anywhere. I dont see what the reason would be for them not crediting you for making the maps.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: Will on January 14, 2012, 09:12:36 AM
Personally I would immediately "Accuse" rather than "Suspect" those maps were ripped off, due to, the absolute identical resemblance of tiles, number of colours and level layout. You've had many coincidental experiences with me but this is no way a coincidence to happen to use the same materials. And if you've had a taste of my map recreation of Toad Man to give the Game Gear map a more Sega Megadrive look (plus other mock map attempts), you'd know that any amateur artist can simply add backgrounds and modify little things like that vine changed from twisty to withered, even I could do a simple modification like that, it doesn't take a professional. The brown walls have a slightly darker colour than your version which is easily and quickly obtained by changing the contrast level in programs like Photoshop. Their lack of reply is the primary clue to suspicious activity.

I have a few suggestions to defend your work:

1. Check out, http://home.comcast.net/~superkidicarus/comments.html - There are no comments referring to vgmaps but if you or someone could post a comment about it, you could bring some attention to visitors and players reading the comments.

2. It would be a good idea to research and quote the exact paragraph, act and subsection of the Copyright Jurisdiction to cover the rip off committed. Unfortunately I'm not an expert in law and order.  

3. Take as many screenshots and source code as you possibly can from the Flip Industries web pages so that you compile proof of fraud before they have a chance to justify their actions by updating the web pages.

Good luck and may the dispute end neatly.

EDIT:

They do not stay faithful to their Mission Statement. Check out http://home.comcast.net/~superkidicarus/reception.html . What was it they hypocritically said? "Substantial assistance will get your name in the credits".


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: JonLeung on January 16, 2012, 11:02:46 AM
It's interesting that you brought up their comments page, Will.  I had debated putting it as a link to it in my article.  After all, it's a public comments page that Flip Industries made available.

I do think everyone is free to say whatever they feel (especially since I obviously have).  But I decided that if I made it too easy for readers to directly go to Flip's page immediately after reading my article, I might appear to be endorsing a war, which I am not.  If you (singular, individual) want to tell them what you think, go ahead and contact them, via email or their comments page or however.  But by no means would I personally arrange or request anything that looks like an organized barrage.

I feel that I've said what I want to say in my article.  So if you want to help, you can mention a link to my article wherever you think it'll be heard.  But be mindful that it doesn't appear as spam.

Spreading the truth is all I want from this, as it's really the only thing I can get out of it.  But if I look like I'm spamming or inciting a war, I'd be setting myself up to lose respect than to gain anything that would be worth it.

There's standing up for oneself, but then there's being annoying.  If I've demonstrated that Flip Industries is in the wrong, I don't need to shove it down everyone's throats.  Or maybe I'm just getting weary of this - that article took a long time to write! - though I maintain my position.

But I do thank you for your support, and for your suggestions, Will.  And I agree that their "mission statement" is ridiculous.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: alucard on January 16, 2012, 03:57:55 PM
You know what, their website is hosted on a free Comcast page. Had Geocities still been around they would have probably used that instead. I would not even worry about these guys


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: DarkWolf on January 17, 2012, 07:43:51 AM
It could be possible that Flip never really did see your maps.  It's entirely possible someone else lifted your tileset and distributed it somewhere on the internet as a "Super Kid Icarus" tileset or maybe even a "Greek" tileset.  And then Flip used it. Even if they did use knowingly use your graphics, I don't see the big deal.  You said yourself in the article that the layouts are based on the original game and you only "chose" the tiles from other commercial games.  You didn't cite or credit the graphic designers of the games you used to construct your tileset (except in the article, which I assume didn't exist until this became an issue), so why would you expect Flip to credit you?

I'm not trying to beat you up or make you feel bad.  It's a stupid Flash game, just let it go.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: JonLeung on January 17, 2012, 08:19:04 AM
Oh, I agree that it's just a Flash game.  That's why I'm not going to great lengths to pursue this, and my article was meant to be my final say on it.

But as for the crediting, with regards to your comment, I still don't see how hard it would have been for Flip to credit me, if they at all knew I made the custom maps, as I have provided evidence to now, even if they somehow didn't know then.  Yes, the tiles came from elsewhere, but it still took my time and my effort to select them.

As an example, let's say we all live in a community that includes an apple orchard.  I'm planning on making an apple pie.  You happen to be picking apples.  You spend the time, looking at each tree, picking out the apples you think are the best.  I end up making an apple pie with your apples, that I share and everyone else likes, because of the apples you chose, but I never mention once that you helped.

Now, perhaps a strange example, but I'm demonstrating that the "picking" is effort.  Sure, I could have at any time picked the same apples myself, but I just took yours.  I was the lazy guy who took your effort for granted.  How would you feel?

I know that, in your words, "it's a stupid Flash game", and you are only demonstrating that there is always room for the benefit of the doubt, but what really gets me going is the audacity that, if they somehow never saw my maps, that they wouldn't bother to give me some kind of explanation.  I gave them gentle reminders for a response, that I doubt could have been as pestering, and I even said I was willing to negotiate the details, and so I think I deserved something.  If they had at all responded, I might have had more patience and not gone to such lengths as to write that.  Maybe we could've worked out how they could've put my name in there and then we all would have been happy.

I admit that I may have been hasty in posting on forums and the like immediately after seeing the Flash game, before Flip Industries had a chance to respond that only time they did, however, if I didn't get my say in, well, you know how the Internet is, if something's older than a day it's already considered old, and if it's a week old it might as well be ancient.  So if I didn't get my say in right away, no one would ever notice or care.

But I guess the real truth is, just like I said in my essay/article/whatever, VGMaps.com may still be nameless to most people, so they wouldn't care much even when they know who really selected those graphics.  I was thinking to myself just before this whole Super Kid Icarus situation, that I needed to do something to get VGMaps' name out there.  This controversy (if it is even large enough to consider warranting that term) might have slightly raised viewership, but probably not much more than could be attributed to random chance, so though I initially thought I should "watch what I wish for", if I really wanted to increase viewership by considerable bounds, it's going to take a lot more than explaining the truth about the apparent laziness of an amateur Flash game maker.  Though the truth, and not hits, was still my primary goal of writing all that.

Besides, it's quite likely that writing my article also brought even more attention to their game.  See how nice I still am to Flip Industries, directly or indirectly?  And still no credit.  You can't blame me for getting a little irked.

(Also, I hope this also discouraged people from taking and (mis)using my The Legend Of Zelda: Oracle Of Hours and Metroid Dread maps.)

But yes, I will eventually let it go, and refocus my energies, perhaps to actually making VGMaps.com more known.  I'm not sure what to do in that regard (other than a total site redesign), but I'm sure I'll figure out something if I could devote the time/energy to it.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: JonLeung on January 19, 2012, 06:09:52 PM
Got an email the other day I forgot to post here, so here it is now:

Quote
Hi Jon,
 
I read your story about your stolen Kid Icarus map. Whilst I no doubt everything you've stated is truthful, as it's 'reused' work that you didn't create, legally it's all grey area and you probably can't do much. And as the people who designed the game are unwilling to cooperate, there's not much else to do.
 
As stolen stuff is a common problem, several things can be done:
1. Copyright traps; intentional mistakes that are barely noticeable, e.g. a misplaced or miscolored pixel
2. Hidden watermarks; write text somewhere with a color so similar u can't read it. Only way to find it is using the fill tool. More advanced methods can be done using photoshop.
3. Hidden digital watermarks. These are very advanced things which can be done that make it almost impossible to know it's there.  Unfortunately, if it's a <256 color image it cannot be hidden so easily. Many websites have tutorials for ways of doing this.
 
Some image compressors may remove methods 2 & 3.
 
If you happen to do anything similar in future, would strongly recommend using one of the above methods.
 
Look on the bright side, your maps were so good looking and convincing that someone actually decided to create a game out of it. Under the circumstances, it would have been worse, they used the original fictional game name and they barely altered the art. So proving it's yours is much easier. Plus it is getting positive feedback, which is not very common for flash games.
 
Hopefully your page about it will go up the google ranks of a super kid icarus search.
 
Regards,
 
A VGMaps contributor.
 
P.S feel free to post this on the forum as an anonymous comment

Thanks for that, anonymous VGMaps contributor!


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: DarkWolf on January 20, 2012, 07:18:21 AM
Just to clarify I wasn't saying that Flip should in no way credit you, and that you didn't deserve some mention, but you can't really expect it with this type of thing.  It's like sprite sheet.  People rip sprites from commercial games and put a "please give credit to xzy" text on their sheet.  It's nice if you make a Flash game (or something else) with that sheet and credit the person who ripped them, but you can't really expect or demand it.  It's copyrighted material that you don't own.  Call me cynical, but I have just come to expect that this sort of thing happens on the internet.

I'm glad you got that e-mail. I should have probably made my argument more along those lines.  ;D

As far as getting VGMaps' name out there, you really need to work on your SEO (search engine optimization).


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: JonLeung on January 21, 2012, 05:25:22 PM
I get what you're saying, no worries, DarkWolf.

Now, I've also seen another "Super Kid Icarus" from a DRX Gaming, which I didn't bother looking too deeply into as I thought I heard it had been cancelled, but if the YouTube preview thumbnails are any indication, they also used my custom title verbatim.  Say what you want about the use of recycled tiles, but that's definitely my own title there.

I get an email from someone defending DRX Gaming, when until just now, I had never mentioned anything against their project specifically:

Quote
Sent: Fri, Jan 20, 2012 3:09 PM PST
Subject: super kid icarus is not yours!!!! READ THIS EMAIL!!!!

DRX Gaming made this game way before your did and have the link below for that so just accept it and go cry or sumthing.

thanks asshat....

[link removed]

DRX GAMING NOW AND 4EVER!!!!!

Link removed because I'm not going to bother looking.

I'm not going to "accept that" because I know what I did back in 2007, which I've already beat the dead horse about with proof using archive.org's Wayback Machine.  I recall seeing DRX Gaming's game as copyrighted 2009, which I don't see how that qualifies as "before" 2007.  And, though it goes without saying, I also think people who "defend" their claim without providing any information and then just insulting don't really have a valid claim.

I guess it can be a natural reaction for some people when they get overly defensive...but it's suspicious when I haven't even said anything to them...

Really, guys.  Really?  This is what the world is coming to?  Anyone else want to try to disavow what I know I did, and look silly by doing so?

EDIT: Wow, looking at their YouTube videos, they not only used the same title, they also used the same tiles for the dirt, without even adding the grass that Flip Industries at least did.  Talk about blatant.  And it seems the person who emailed me defending DRX Gaming is still going on with their emails, and yet without support, just claiming I didn't make mine first.  Do people really get their kicks arguing - even when they aren't even the slightest bit convincing and already know in their hearts that they are wrong?  What on earth do these people want?

EDIT AGAIN: Well, whoever this guy is, he just wants more publicity for DRX Gaming.  I'll debate whether or not people need to see how embarrassingly ridiculous his later emails are.  They are pretty bad.  It's pretty sad when people can't debate facts so they think persistence with insults and false accusations will win, and even while there's not really much to "win".  And since this was originally between me and Flip Industries, DRX pretty much just walked into this on their own.  In a world where tens of thousands of hours of entertainment are produced every day, people are still bored enough to do dumb things like this...sheesh.  I guess I'll "stop feeding the trolls", because I have better things to do with my life than argue something that I already know the truth about.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: snesmaster on January 25, 2012, 05:20:33 PM
That sucks, I remember when you made those maps back in 2007 and you even gave me credit for using my maps from the original NES game as a starting point when swapping out the tiles you found from other 16-bit games.  I don't see why they don't just give you credit and a link to your site.

In a few cases I have had people steal maps I made and use them for projects they have done.  Every time I contacted them, they apologized and had no problem giving me credit and a link back to my site.  I wonder why Flip does not extend the same common courtesy to you.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: JonLeung on April 28, 2012, 09:52:09 PM
I was recently alerted to this topic at Pixel Joint, which is interesting enough that I might soon add it in an update to my original article...

http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14265&PN=1

Until it was edited, the original post was Flip Industries attempting to recruit artists.  After the post made by Chesu, which not only references my article but found a number of counts of Flip Industries misusing work from deviantArt users, Flip Industries probably gave up and didn't want to face the accusations which is why it has been edited into that Rick Astley "RickRoll'd" video.  Real mature.

It is sad that Flip Industries hasn't learnt anything.  The artwork wasn't there a few months ago, back when the one single email I got from Flip Industries clearly shows that they were aware (yet not really acknowledging) of my accusations, so their audacity is clearly boundless when the trouble I raised then didn't stop them from blatantly taking more original work, as in artwork, which is more serious than just tile-swapping.  This is purely ridiculous.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: TerraEsperZ on April 28, 2012, 10:14:23 PM
Once a thief, always a thief, at least when it comes to intellectual properties. This kind of scum never learns and the relative anonymity of the Internet makes it way too easy sadly. At least more people are starting to realize the kind of people they are.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: Will on April 28, 2012, 10:40:00 PM
Congratulations for this effort against those fakers and phonies. I hope those who accused you Jon of trolling, eat their words. Flip Industries is definitely going to the dogs. The probability that the website will shut down is predictable. May your works be safe and viewed by honest fans.  ;)

By the way I recently noticed, Flip Industries truly is immature. That's cos the industry's flipping mental.  :D


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: JonLeung on May 01, 2012, 10:01:49 PM
I updated my article, the added portions are coloured cyan.  I might edit it further if my points aren't clear, as it is getting late and I might not be thinking sharply.  :P  But really, a picture is worth a thousand words, and so with all those images, I'm not sure how much clearer I really need to be.

If you read the Pixel Joint topic fully, it's actually sort of amusing.  However, what isn't funny is that Flip Industries is stealing hand-drawn artwork, not just having the same tiles replaced.  I thought this was behind me, but the emails I've been getting from artists has encouraged me to bring this up once again.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: Trop on May 03, 2012, 07:25:21 AM
If he's stealing from DA you could make that public knowledge on the DA boards to do some damage.  From what I hear the DA boards are lots of drama so the impact might be huge.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: JonLeung on May 03, 2012, 04:31:02 PM
GoNintendo Nightly: The Best, Worst and Weirdest Nintendo News of May 2nd, 2012  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL9QDrjOWos)

I can't seem to embed YouTube like I used to...anyway, GoNintendo mentions it in this video, between 3:04 and 4:10.  I guess I wrote decently enough for it to be "well worth" anyone's time.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: Mikemc on May 06, 2012, 10:32:39 AM
I am now officially confused on the subject, here is what I've found:

DrX Gaming has a myspace profile under the name "megamanclassic" and contains 2 images - 'Super Kid Icarus' and 'Icarus Prime'. They are both identical except for some minor color changes and added grass on the dirt. DrX Gaming has a Youtube channel showing off the game, upload date 2009 (as you've stated) HOWEVER here is what the description says.

( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_NVHMtFU8I )
Quote
Current Release: July 31, 2011 Engine Build
Download: http://www.mediafire.com/?2c6nl4uof4n6lyr
Current Statues: New video will be uploaded later in the year.
This engine is based on the (Open Source) Kid Icarus by Game Fortress.

Map Tile credit: Jon Leung - VGMaps
Notice at the bottom that you are credited for the tileset! :)

You are also credited on this page:
http://www.flixya.com/photo/2303489/Kid-Icarus-Prime

In the comments section of his YT channel, both you and Flip are mentioned so I have no idea what is going on anymore ???
Quote
I've given credit to Jon Leung including VGMaps in the "Kid Icarus Prime" video description. If he would of actually played the game credit was given, and once the new video is ready even Flip Industries will be credited for couple of tile ideas.

It's difficult to take either side here. Someone used tilesets (and levels?) from someone else.. that were arranged using tiles drawn by someone else :-\


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: Will on May 06, 2012, 01:04:47 PM
It is good to see that DRX Gaming actually credited those maps and tiles, though asking to use them would have been more polite. You make it sound like Flip Industries got permission from DRX Gaming and therefore it would seem they had the right idea. But Flip Industries' suspicious behaviour of multiple accounts (sockpuppetry is the term on Wikipedia), defending itself and not replying to Jon's questioning dictates otherwise. I suggest a discussion with megamanclassic or someone related to DRX Gaming. I hope they have a better idea about answering questions than Flip Industries did.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: JonLeung on May 06, 2012, 02:01:31 PM
Actually, I am confused too, but on the point where you mentioned that DRX Gaming has credited me.

After the initial write-up of that article against Flip Industries in January, I was emailed repeatedly by someone (supposedly) from DRX Gaming, claiming that I mapped their game, essentially saying that I was the thief.

My article was clearly and specifically talking about Flip Industries' project, so it was odd that since I could still maintain my stance about my maps (as it is the truth) against any later fan-made Kid Icarus game whose maps resembled mine, that DRX Gaming would even pop up just to accuse me.  (If I'm remembering these various projects correctly, I seem to recall that DRX Gaming's project even took the title logo I made...sheesh.  Not that it was hard to make, but then it's all the more blatant...)

A snippet of one of the harassing emails:

Quote
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 08:58:23 -0800
Subject: RE: super kid icarus is not yours!!!! READ THIS EMAIL!!!!

It is simple very simple. DRX Gaming created super kid icarus and then you took sprite sheets from it. Simple DRX Gaming mad it first before 2007 and it was taken

Your entire website page of analysis didn't mention DRX Gaming. Odd and why well cause they created it and you kno it and didn't want to give credit

What I want is yours site and the analysis web page to give credit to DRX as the creaters

Simple so sinmple. You kno what you did cause you never said about DRX Gaming at all!!!!!

(EDIT: Apparently I did mention DRX Gaming earlier in this thread, forgot about that...)

That's just a small part of the whole ridiculous conversation.  Because here I am, able to prove that my maps came first, though NOT speaking against DRX Gaming, and this guy from DRX Gaming was suddenly accusing ME of stealing his work, with no shred of proof, or even any maturity in his statements.  And this was on an email discussion, no less.  As in a discussion between just two people.  The two people who both know who really made those maps.  He's trying to convince me that I didn't make my own maps, when he and I both know I did?  What a waste of time.  I figured him to be a troll who popped up just because he WANTED me to mention DRX Gaming, so I chose NOT to mention them or their game.  And then I blocked him.

But I guess I didn't question if he really was from DRX Gaming at the time, because I had no reason to think otherwise.  But if you're seeing DRX Gaming mention my name, that's a surprise to me.  (Though taking stuff without my permission and then slapping my name on after doesn't really count as "credit".)

As I said, the article proving that my maps came first can stand against anything (which so far has been nothing of value) that Flip Industries or DRX Gaming OR any troll can throw at me.  The focus of the article will remain on Flip Industries, because not only is that where this began, but they are still active in promoting their game, and worse, still active in taking others' work.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: JonLeung on May 06, 2012, 03:24:05 PM
Hmmm.  Intriguing idea.  Not sure why I was blind to that possibility.  Kinda facepalming myself here.

We don't know for sure, but if that was indeed Flip Industries impersonating DRX Gaming, perhaps they didn't think they could counter my arguments, so they figured they might as well dilute or divert the allegations.  And judging from what I've seen so far, that hypothesis isn't surprising if it turns out to be true.

Not that the real DRX Gaming is off the hook.  I'm still not fond of anyone who takes my work without asking, and I say again that the real value of fan games is for fan game makers to learn how to make games, so it's rather defeative of the point to take someone else's work.  Don't fan game makers want to be proud of doing all the work on their game?

After all the trouble Flip Industries has gone through because of this, they're either regretting that they should have accepted my initial terms for proper credit (though reluctant at the time) and now have to do all this damage control, or they just think it's a big joke now because their game is getting attention helped along by me.  Negative publicity is still publicity.

Perhaps the best thing for me to do is to say my piece, have it available, but be done with it.

But I guess now I can't be entirely unactive on this point; I'll still have to update the article as things change, if some of the deviantART users wish to make their grievances known about Flip Industries and their shady practices.

...I don't think anyone wonders now why I'm not keen on April Fools' maps anymore.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: Will on May 09, 2012, 02:04:32 AM
I'm suspecting the same Flip Industries user is advertising in Wikipedia to get some sort attention and make it seem genuinely original. The user under the name PeterAmbrosia has so far only been updating the Kid Icarus related material and nothing else in the last eight months. He created a "Super Kid Icarus" article which was later nominated for deletion and he protested against the article deletion. Also the citations to the fan game quote the exact text content of the Flip Industries website. Though the user has been brief, he didn't follow certain procedures in Wikipedia editing, which you can expect from the immature kind. I took the liberty of citing and notifying the possibility of graphical theft within the article sentence of the so-called notable remake. The user has not yet deleted my addition text at any rate. Time will tell when new strategies take place.

Mighty suspicious, yet juicy gossip and another chink in Flip Industries' armour.

That user will do anything he can to claim to public eyes that Super Kid Icarus was his creation alone.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: JonLeung on May 09, 2012, 08:50:32 AM
I noticed that there was a question specifically about VGMaps.com on Yahoo! Answers sometime recently (though deleted, but can still be seen when doing a Google search) and edits to the VGMaps Wikipedia article, both about the legality of screenshot maps, the latter done on May 1, which is the very day I updated my article against Flip Industries.

I don't like this escalation, if it is indeed a retaliative effort on their part.  It certainly appears to be a possibility, given what we know they have done.  It seems that Flip Industries would attempt to take down VGMaps.com, a resource for everyone (including them, ironically), rather than admit to wrongdoing on their part.

EDIT: In other news, I found a Google-cached page of the PixelJoint forum topic before the "rickrolling" edit, if that helps put Flip Industries' recruitment topic in any better context.  Though I guess all it proves is that it was something else before being edited, and that they thought it was necessary to just do that instead of just saying that positions were filled or something along those lines.  Maybe I'll grab a screenshot of that page if I do decide to further update my article, if further evidence of their immaturity is necessary.

Also, there's now a similar question on the Australian Yahoo! Answers as the previous one, except now the questioner (who just joined "today", May 10 - because it's Australian) makes sure to mention my name directly.  Sheesh.  It's like he's personally attacking me now, lashing out in desperation because there's no way he can save face.

EDIT: And the same user, "Greg", more recently asked again on the American Yahoo! Answers, the same question, but now specifically mentioning that I operate out of Canada.  If this was a legitimate question, one should only need to mention screenshot maps in general.  VGMaps might be used as a reference if it was about that, but mentioning my name and my location is clearly targetting me.  How ridiculous this all is...

EDIT: And now there's a YouTube video against me.  It's private, though, so one has to wonder what gems of wisdom are found in there...

EDIT: And a YouTube channel by "Tim Buxton" (the same username who defended Flip Industries on the PixelJoint forums) to "alert the public of the catastrophe" of me and VGMaps, which are both "terrible".  This guy needs a new hobby.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: Peardian on May 09, 2012, 10:30:25 PM
Sheesh. What is with this guy? Doesn't he realize he's just burning bridges by all this nonsense?


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: Maxim on May 10, 2012, 06:14:22 AM
http://www.google.com/search?q=vgmaps+site%3Aanswers.yahoo.com

He seems persistent :) I guess he's hoping to make you afraid of having bad stuff associated with your name on the internet.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: JonLeung on May 10, 2012, 07:04:38 AM
Thankfully, I doubt anyone is taking the questions on Yahoo! Answers seriously.  (Flip Industries is likely involved with the questions on Yahoo! Answers that seem to be "advertising" Super Kid Icarus as well, with questions that wouldn't be realistically asked like "Where can I play Super Kid Icarus, the free Flash game?")  It seems like the recent and suspicious Wikipedia edits have also been undone, so the article has reverted to how it was earlier.  Thanks to anyone and everyone who is supportive.  :D

So I guess I needn't worry about Flip Industries, as nothing they do really sticks, and the more they try, the more they make themselves look bad.  I suppose I also don't need to present a continually ongoing account of their feeble attempts either, if that might be seen as feeding the troll(s), since I think by now we have seen enough cases revealing their immaturity.

As I said, it's not about me and my maps any more - but there's still got to be some way to get them to stop taking others' artwork from deviantART and elsewhere.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: FlyingArmor on May 11, 2012, 07:07:39 PM
Funnily enough, it seems someone responded to the latest question (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120509133914AATm45B) on Yahoo Answers... >_>;

It's really funny the person who responded should relate making screen shot maps to stealing a car; the analogy simply isn't valid. If someone steals your car, you no longer have it. If someone takes screen shots of a game and assembles them into a map, the creator of the game still has the game, and even so, you're not copying the entire game anyway by making maps from it (and even copying the entire game wouldn't be stealing either). So to call mapping a form of stealing is pretty ridiculous and goes to show they don't really know what the word "steal" means. Copying isn't synonymous with stealing.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: Will on May 11, 2012, 10:37:41 PM
Funny it's still Greg posting a question, you'd think Yahoo Question would ban the troll. I too am not impressed at this so-called top contributor's answer. Very unprofessional. I suggest some hotmail member around here prove him wrong with a brief reply. It is ridiculous Greg says he doesn't want to be a thief when in fact he already he is one. What a hypocrite.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: HackalJackal on May 25, 2012, 03:43:44 PM
Quite an example of douchebaggery, if you ask me.

So they never respond?  That smells suspicious, anyone would at least say something.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: Mikemc on May 30, 2012, 03:01:28 AM
The Youtube channel is by "Musa Sharifa"
Quote
About Musa Sharifa

Channel created by 3 mates to alert the public of the catastrophe that has hit regarding Jon Leung and VGMaps. Note - this channel and videos are jokes and not to be taken seriously and really are pretty terrible. Any reference to a person living or dead is coincidental.
The videos appear to be trolling you about how much attention you want for this debacle :p. Not a big deal except they're hiding behind 'in our opinion' and 'coincidence', in addition to posting the vids as responses to other such videos. In my opinion however the only people who pay any attention to those kinds of videos are conspiracy theorists and reside in the 'slums' of Youtube. I think you've made your point and should let it pass.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: Will on May 30, 2012, 04:03:27 AM
EDIT: I've located the sources of all the images he's used. Easy peasy with Google Image search. They have been taken from:

http://scubasquirrel.wordpress.com/
http://newscoma.com/2010/10/27/a-squirrel-in-a-fedora/


Title: VGMaps YouTube videos
Post by: JonLeung on October 12, 2012, 07:38:29 AM
As much as I loathe to return to this situation, I feel I should comment.  You may have noticed that a Google search for "VGMaps" brings up a number of YouTube videos, painting a poor picture of VGMaps.  These videos also mention me by name including one using my photo from Facebook.

Though next to no one seems to be taking these videos seriously, and not many are even viewing them, just a cursory Google search for VGMaps would not help me if I wanted to promote my site or if I need good references.  I feel like I wouldn't be able to mention that I run VGMaps.com early on in a new job, or applying for one, for example, if employers Google it and see that I "admit to stealing" or other claims, even if they're "in the opinion" of this VGMaps hater who uses basic MS Paint skills and hides behind Microsoft Anna.

The timing of the release of the videos makes me suspect Flip Industries, as they certainly have the motive: in retaliation for my write-up calling them out on using images/graphics without permission for the "Super Kid Icarus" Flash game (http://www.vgmaps.com/Reviews/Editorial-DidFlipIndustriesReallyCreateSuperKidIcarus.htm).  Though they could also be anyone else looking to stir up crap and using my already-formed suspicion towards Flip Industries against both of us, though I can't imagine why anyone else feels the need to go to the trouble.

In any case, these videos are not helping anything.  They cannot seem to be removed despite being obvious trolling attempts, because of freedom of speech.  Google owns YouTube, so it's no surprise that Google promotes YouTube videos highly, though a little ridiculous that they would do so even with these ones that no one even watches.  Whoever is responsible may not be actively causing more trouble lately with new videos, but if these videos remain, they don't really have to.

I don't want to have a VGMaps-vs-haters war, but there's got to be something that could be done.  Any suggestions?  Like, I don't know if making more YouTube videos about VGMaps - even if they're just as simply made - to "bury" the ridiculous videos would work.  As if I'm not busy enough right now...sheesh.  Well, what do you guys think?


Title: Re: VGMaps YouTube videos
Post by: Peardian on October 12, 2012, 10:09:49 AM
Whoever they are, they're clever about covering their behinds, what with putting a (crude) disclaimer at the start of every video saying  essentially "this is just parody, this is just an opinion, nobody says this is the truth, so you can't touch me" and ending every video title with "in our opinion".

That said, the account name itself is a pretty clear indicator that their only goal is defamatory/trollish in nature. Have you attempted contacting YouTube staff about the issue?


If the videos can't be taken down, another solution is to simply put up proper youtube videos about the site. You know, like a sort of slideshow or video review of certain map sets or something.


Title: Re: VGMaps YouTube videos
Post by: TerraEsperZ on October 12, 2012, 02:35:15 PM
They've been busy trying to slander VGMaps.com on its Wikipedia page using the name ArtimusSlayer, which was itself a "sock puppet" of PeterAmbrosia, as were  CharlesWhopper, Fattestalbert and DrLuigiMD. This PeterAmbrosia is also (or should I say *only*) notable for fighting on the Kid Icarus page to advertise their Super Kid Icarus game with stolen graphics. Surprise, surprise...

I suspect the same people to have asked that Yahoo! Answers question about whether VGMaps was violating copyright with their work. Seriously, can these guys just accept that they were caught red-handed with their art theft and just shut the hell up? I swear, some assholes would destroy the whole world if it meant it would cover up their crimes/misdeeds...


Title: Re: VGMaps YouTube videos
Post by: Revned on October 12, 2012, 05:14:24 PM
Well, that's annoying.

I think the reason that they show up so high in the results is that there aren't really other sites that talk much about VGMaps. The first result is vgmaps.com and the second is Wikipedia. What would you expect next? There have been various posts on social media sites, but Google's algorithms must not think they're good quality. They're also older than these videos, which I'm sure factors into it.

YouTube isn't going to take them down (which is, incidentally, what makes YouTube great). You can't get rid of these results, you can only hope that they get bumped down the list eventually.


Title: Re: VGMaps YouTube videos
Post by: Peardian on October 15, 2012, 07:03:41 AM
Looks like the owner of the YouTube account decided to accept the Google+ offer certain users have been getting. The account's name is now Musa Sharifa, but the channel's address is still VGMapsIsStealing.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: Will on November 24, 2012, 06:33:44 AM
Exactly what do you make of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1qse25YHtg ?

It's one of those fake or unfinished super nintendo roms. Could rom have been created by Flip Industries in an attempt to create false evidence the rom existed before the maps on this site were made? Just a suspicious speculation of mine.

ADDITIONAL

What is more on http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_330339&feature=iv&src_vid=fm_D3SO727A&v=nNOx6ZJqCcU it appears that game has been remade. You guessed it, nothing new, just graphics changed easily with graphic modifiers and of course the layout remains the same. If they think changing the game to seem original is to going to change their status, they've got all past evidence of their theft flashing before their eyes.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: JonLeung on December 04, 2012, 08:10:41 AM
Those older videos may or may not have been made by Flip Industries.  They still come after the release of my maps, which the Wayback Machine has since long proved.  In any case, whoever it was, I still don't understand the audacity of people using things without asking and without credit.  Anyone's counter that they're not my graphics to begin with (disregarding the few tiles that are edited), to that I say, well then rip your own from wherever, don't use the same choices as mine so verbatim.  Is it really so hard for amateur gamemakers to make their own game which should be the point of making a game in the first place?  It's not like any amateur game that is clearly a fan work would ever attain real popularity so as to be more profitable or valuable than the learning experience of how to make one.  And then, for his web site, taking other people's artwork?  Sprites and tiles are one thing, but taking other fans' work is unexcusable.

But that horse has been beaten to a pulp, and it's not like I want to (or should need to) beat it anymore.

You may have noticed that Flip Industries is still actively going on its smear campaign to get VGMaps.com shut down with more recent efforts.  I don't understand how this guy feels so hard done by my article simply proving the earlier existence of my maps (and others' deviantART) that he has to keep going with this futility.  He did something that was questionable, but then takes the effort to take me down (efforts that aren't well-received by anyone else anyway) instead of putting a similar amount of effort to make an original game that he could use to somewhat salvage his reputation.  Maybe.  Or he could have discussed this with me the times I emailed him about it.  Instead he'd rather be immature.  Like, grow up, bud.  Last I saw his game is still up and same with all these YouTube videos and other comments, so he should just move on, seriously.


Title: Re: VGMaps YouTube videos
Post by: AndyDick on March 04, 2013, 12:53:27 PM
After reading this, I've immediately tagged my videos with "VGMaps.com" to help with the quality of your YouTube search results. It will probably take a few days or so before it makes an impact though. They had already showed up after searching, but only because I put links in the description back to here. I'm hoping with the added tags now it should make them appear higher up than those troll videos.


Title: Re: VGMaps YouTube videos
Post by: JonLeung on March 13, 2013, 07:03:46 AM
Thanks for doing that, AndyDick!  (Sorry about not responding earlier!)

Doing searches on Google for "VGMaps" or "VGMaps.com" still seems to prioritize that guy's troll videos, so I don't know if earlier videos can trump those if they only recently had their tags updated.  And he mentions VGMaps a lot, more than I would realistically expect you to.  Or perhaps it will take a little more time...

But I thank you for doing what you have.  Any bit of help is still appreciated.  While this guy's beef with me is far from an overbearing annoyance, and his pathetic smear campaign is so blatantly trollish that no one takes him seriously, it's still nice to know I have you guys on my side, and all he appears to have are alts and sockpuppets.

As I said before, it's kind of sad, really.  Hopefully, for his sake, he can one day move on, from this "wrong" he thinks I have done to him, for speaking out against his theft of work from deviantARTists.


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: avalanch on December 29, 2013, 04:21:04 PM
Seems that he's still at it, one of his more recent postings a few month's back.

Quote
well they haven't done anything about Jon Leung of VGMaps, he does copyright infringement all the time of Sega games!!! Hopefully Sega will shut VGMaps down and stop Jon Leung!
http://forums.sega.com/showthread.php?489801-youtube-copyright-help&p=8141855&viewfull=1#post8141855


Title: Re: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
Post by: RT 55J on December 31, 2013, 02:44:38 PM
This whole situation is like one of the most pathetic things ever.