Post by: JonLeung on July 15, 2008, 02:21:59 pm
VGMaps.com has been adequate as it is for its purpose, but has been relatively unchanged since it started in 2002. Sure, in 2006 I gave the site a switch from black to white, and added randomizing thumbnails (which I'm behind in making, and has sloppy code >_>), but there have always been concerns about making a more dynamic, database-driven system (as opposed to static, manually-updated HTML files as the site is now).
I personally would like a system that would be easier to update. I would also like the site to appear more professional (though a good deal of that would come with a database conversion) - ease of use and aesthetics are my primary concerns. A database system surely has the benefit of being faster (by not loading up anything unrequested) and would probably allow for the inclusion of a search tool, and everyone can appreciate those.
As many of you know, I'm not exactly a coder. I admit to not even "getting" PHP. I barely "get" HTML! So I'm probably going to want someone (or a few people) I trust to handle the guts of a possible conversion. And maybe a conversion is easy. I wouldn't know. But keep in mind that we have over 10000 maps now, and not all information is included in the filename of each map (ie. mapper and email address).
Other than "databasing" and all related to it, what else would you like to see? Timestamps for maps? "New Map" indicators? Maybe mapper profiles when names are clicked? Oh, how about ratings for maps, games, and/or mappers? Or maybe something like better handling of foreign/alternate names of games? Consistency in handling details like leading zeroes of numbered-stage games or a different (yet more consistent) way of distinguishing/signifying in-game maps, original maps, etc.? Or do you have ideas on how to make the site look better? The site could use a bit of a facelift anyway, perhaps a slight redesign of the logo (oooh, 3D rendered, maybe?) and little things like that while we're at it.
I make no promises that anything we discuss in this topic will actually come to pass, but at least we can discuss our options (who, what, and how) so that I may become more inclined to do this, or more trusting of this site in other people's hands, or overcome whatever hang-ups I have about all this, and so that we'll know what to change/add/etc. if/when we actually undertake such a task.
So, what would you like to see in a site makeover?
Post by: Grizzly on July 15, 2008, 03:07:18 pm
And yeah, databasing would be great. With a search feature :)
Post by: Revned on July 15, 2008, 04:53:41 pm
I don't think it would be all that hard to write a parser for the existing HTML pages. It'd only have to be done once, so it wouldn't have to be flawless. Darkwolf already has something that extracts user information for statistics.
The great thing about a database system is that you could easily change the look/layout of the site without having to wade through 1+ MB HTML files. Little things like adding a column to the tables would be a chore right now, but they could be done in <5 minutes with a dynamic content source.
Post by: DarkWolf on July 15, 2008, 05:07:32 pm
If you design the tables correctly, you can represent and slice the data numerous ways and create all sorts features.
Whatever you decide to incorporate, make sure you get a clear plan of what you'd like, especially if you are going to bring other people in, as you'll need to convey what you really want out of your site so you don't end up with something you don't want or are unsatisfied with.
That said, I'd be willing to help. I have experience in such things and I have some simple, but time-saving object sets I could bring to the table.
I'm not terribly great with graphics and making things look pretty, but you always get someone else to do the stylesheets. ;)
Post by: KingKuros on July 15, 2008, 08:22:37 pm
http://web.archive.org/web/*/https://www.vgmaps.com
Post by: marioman on July 15, 2008, 08:29:24 pm
Post by: KingKuros on July 15, 2008, 08:33:06 pm
Post by: marioman on July 15, 2008, 08:47:42 pm
Post by: Will on July 15, 2008, 10:53:06 pm
Post by: Raccoon Sam on July 16, 2008, 03:32:44 am
Post by: snesmaster on July 16, 2008, 03:10:54 pm
Post by: Maxim on July 16, 2008, 03:36:02 pm
Thumbnails would be good.
Post by: Eggz on July 16, 2008, 05:40:58 pm
But I definitely push for the search option. It's would be easier to directly compare maps from a series but on different consoles easier i.e. Zelda, or compare the same game on multiple platforms i.e. Prince of Persia.
A semi-easy way I can think of doing that is to have each different game that we have maps for have its own page with the list of maps found there rather than on the main console page. Keeps the page size smaller, and if the filenames were standardized to be the title of the game, setting the search function to find key words within that shouldn't be too hard.
---
This looks like a job for Science!
Post by: DarkWolf on July 17, 2008, 05:32:21 am
Post by: Maxim on July 17, 2008, 06:13:38 am
Of course you don't generate thumbnails on the fly. But not having thumbnails for an image-based site seems odd, more so for games where seeing the "whole world" is part of the appeal of the maps.
Standardising filenames, perhaps by generating them from the metadata, seems like a good idea.
3D rendered logos are very 1990s.
Post by: JonLeung on July 18, 2008, 07:01:40 am
Some of these possibilities sound like they'd need integration with the forums. Even something as simple as having "Favourites". This will certainly be interesting. I'm sure TerraEsperZ will freak out at the thought of another forum migration... :P
Are there any current columns we don't need? Do we still want two columns for the area name and sub-area name, for example? For many games, it works well. For others, not so much.
Post by: Maxim on July 18, 2008, 07:36:50 am
It might be interesting to offer a "view all maps for one game on one page" option, and/or a "download all maps for one game as a ZIP" option, both similar to viewing image attachments in GMail. Both could be implemented fairly easily - the ZIP can be uncompressed to avoid using server-side CPU and generated dynamically.
Post by: TerraEsperZ on July 18, 2008, 11:30:57 am
Which I shouldn't complain about, since I wasn't involved in the actual process. It's just that we lost not only many interesting threads, but also many regular posters who didn't bother to join up again, and that sucked.
As for suggestions, I'll have to get back to you on that. So far, the only thing that really annoys me is not knowing which maps are new, and which have been updated. Personally, I'd like to have a column indicating the date when a map was added/updated.
---
Current projects: Ristar-The Shooting Star (Gen), Sonic The Hedgehog (Gen), Sonic CD (Sega CD), Mega Man Zero (GBA), Battletoads (NES), Bucky O'Hare (NES)
Post by: JonLeung on July 18, 2008, 11:56:20 am
I was thinking about having more information about each game itself. Things like alternate names (like other regions' names) and links to the other versions. That would be handy if someone wanted to quickly look over all the different Prince Of Persia games...or Alien Syndrome or Xevious, etc.
Post by: Maxim on July 18, 2008, 11:57:15 am
Certainly, it'd be nice to be able to distinguish new from updated, especially on the front page.
Post by: Maxim on July 18, 2008, 12:03:42 pm
While image libraries exist to get that information from files, they can be problematic on large images. It may be necessary to have a fallback to manually entered data.
Post by: Revned on July 18, 2008, 12:27:43 pm
Post by: Will on July 18, 2008, 12:42:01 pm
Post by: DarkWolf on July 18, 2008, 01:29:45 pm
Why do you want to erase legitimate forum topics? They don't take up much space and it really doesn't hurt to have a record of things. At some point a large forum might benefit from the archival of older posts, but I don't think this forum has even come close to that point.
Post by: JonLeung on July 18, 2008, 01:32:28 pm
I could do a cleanup of topics and/or maps one day, but that could also be entirely independent of a site conversion.
(And for the record, me and bustin98 had nothing to do with the failed forum migrations in the past.)
Post by: Maxim on July 18, 2008, 04:12:25 pm
Post by: JonLeung on July 18, 2008, 04:30:54 pm
I was thinking about making some mock-ups of how I'd like to see the site, before we go shopping around for some code we can use, or whatever. Of course, if I go that far, it'd be hard to enforce the "no promises" I made at the beginning...maybe it's already too late?
Post by: Revned on July 18, 2008, 07:07:06 pm
Post by: JonLeung on July 27, 2008, 10:04:14 pm
It will take some time to juggle some ideas and then do a mock-up...
Post by: Maxim on July 28, 2008, 03:11:17 am
Post by: DarkWolf on July 28, 2008, 02:56:21 pm
Post by: Revned on September 25, 2008, 01:30:05 pm
Post by: JonLeung on September 25, 2008, 02:21:02 pm
This isn't forgotten, but I hope no one is holding their breath for revamp.
Post by: Revned on September 25, 2008, 07:57:19 pm
Frankly, I'd much rather see a redesign than another April Fools' map set. I've been holding my breath for a long, long time.
Post by: JonLeung on September 25, 2008, 10:02:39 pm
There must also be some better way to handle remakes/ports/compilations. Perhaps the map tables (for lack of a better term) could have more information in the title box, like clickable links to see the whole series (as above), or quick links to other versions of the same game?
I don't want there to be too much information, but often looking at the directory as it is now, I often wonder if I make it clear enough what games are available for the expected console, etc.
I want it to be easy to find the maps one is looking for, while still being able to simply browse.
Post by: Revned on September 25, 2008, 10:39:38 pm
I always thought the directory was a bit too comprehensive. I think all the remakes are distracting, since they're the same font and size as everything else. It would be nice if the maps page had collapsible (or something) sections with additional information, so users don't have to see it if they don't want to.
With a database, you can have searching and sorting, and you can still show your data like a regular web page.
Post by: Will on September 26, 2008, 12:56:29 pm
Post by: StarFighters76 on September 26, 2008, 04:08:11 pm
Goooooooooood morning VGMaps.com!
Yeah, like you didn't see this coming :)
---
Creator of over 770 maps on GameFAQs. ^_^
Post by: DarkWolf on September 26, 2008, 04:38:32 pm
Post by: JonLeung on September 29, 2008, 07:01:24 am
I noticed that images' metadata (you know, subject, date, location, series, and other numbers and categories and tags and descriptions, etc.) is now more readily accessible in Vista and there are MANY fields to enter information on. There are bound to be the fields I would want to fill in, and definitely more than enough overall. Or at least with JPEGs...I'll have to see if PNGs do too.
(One thing I don't like is that changing metadata resaves the file, so that each time I edit it the date is brought back to the current time and date. Though I suppose I could always use CompuPic to change the time and date back, like I did during that mass PNGGauntleting a couple years back...)
Would it make more sense to integrate the information about the file in the metadata in the file itself? As opposed to creating a separate and bulky database file?
Post by: Revned on September 29, 2008, 08:21:34 am
Post by: Rew on September 29, 2008, 08:43:59 am
---
"So this is what it's like..."
- Spark Mandrill
Post by: Maxim on September 29, 2008, 09:58:50 am
Post by: DarkWolf on September 30, 2008, 04:02:29 pm
Some notes:
* Width, height and size are included in the map table for caching purposes.
* Filename in the map table may not be necessary. Ideally, you'd store the maps on disk with a file name that matches the map id. You could also use a file type field and an alteration of the map name to generate your HTTP headers.
Post by: Maxim on October 01, 2008, 02:25:06 am
One thing that might be interesting would be to store topic IDs with the maps, hooked up to the relevant "topic" in these forums (eg. this is topic 777). Maps without a "topic" would have a NULL and the relevant link would go to a "create a new topic" page. That last part would be tricky because it'd require some forum modifications.
Maps need some more fields:
- Ordering number (to allow display in the right order)
- Separate area/subarea text
Post by: DarkWolf on October 01, 2008, 06:33:39 pm
Post by: Maxim on October 02, 2008, 01:27:27 am
Post by: JonLeung on October 02, 2008, 07:06:35 am
We'll discuss compensation if you guys want it once I'm able to sit down and get serious about this. I feel like you guys might have given it more thought than I have!
So far, I've had like one hour of free time this week. I'm busier at home than I am at work! This is why you really don't want me to learn this stuff myself if there are already people here willing to help...
I still would like to make a mock-up if I can find the time. It wouldn't strictly be a graphical mock-up. It'd be constructed in HTML, as one you can "navigate", though obviously limited and guided. Things like search boxes and other fill-in fields would be locked in with particular text entered, so it'd be easy to show what I want to see when things are clicked through and etc. Or maybe I won't...we'll see how the time goes, how easy it is for us to communicate what we think, etc.
Now to get back to talking about what we want...
Do we want a lot of user-specific stuff? By that I mean people would log on to the site to be able to rate/nominate maps and add comments and see what they've contributed and that sort of thing. That sounds like that would involve integration of the forums.
It's not so much the revamp of how the site looks and navigates...it's the potential new features that would make it worth the effort but are infinitely more intimidating to someone like myself...though I guess I should stop worrying and start thinking about what I want. Then maybe after I can worry, but I shouldn't if this is in the right hands. :P
Post by: Maxim on October 03, 2008, 04:11:14 am
As for user interaction: it's always nice, but bear in mind 99% of visitors will not want to register. Anonymous comments can be protected with captchas and moderation. But all of it is sugar on the top of the basic structure, which is what you should focus on first.
The proposed schema has users linked to maps, presumably for submitting (you can always create a user account for people who just email you the maps, or for old maps where the submitter can't be contacted), which would allow the "show me my stuff" feature - or maybe just a user field in the search.
Oh, and password CHAR(32)? I hope that means a 32-character string representation of a salted MD5sum of the real password... Or, see what the forum user/pass tables look like, they may be usable for an immediate userbase fix.
On SMS Power! I made a separate, admin-post-starting-only forum for news posts and a simple query on the front page to grab the 5 newest topics. It's a nice way to (1) allow comments on news posts, (2) avoid having to code any interface for creating news posts, (3) allow news to show up in the forums (since many people have them as their site entry point) and (4) avoid having multiple systems for essentially the same thing. But then we also have a large forum archive (going back to 1999) that means we don't destroy our forums every few years :) and a long-term commitment to not lose old posts when changing forums (we still have the first post from 1999).
Oh, and I've had about 0 hours free (as in, free to actually do stuff except post on forums while at work) in the last 6 months and I have my own DB-driven site to work on even if I do get time, and a bunch of other projects too.
Post by: Will on October 04, 2008, 08:40:22 am
That document will certain help you and SMS n' GG mappers but I wonder if it'll trigger a whole swarm of Map Request on the forum, people seeing all those titles and recalling titles they may have played. If you approve of this document I can keep it up to date. I spend several weeks researching, compiling and calculating.
Post by: DarkWolf on October 04, 2008, 09:53:09 am
Post by: Maxim on October 07, 2008, 01:18:53 am
Post by: JonLeung on October 16, 2008, 07:10:57 am
I'm debating whether or not to move this topic to the hidden board, maybe not yet, but perhaps when I get around to the mock-up phase.
I'm thinking there should be another category for "game series", so that, for example, when someone does a search for "Metal Gear" that Snake's Revenge also comes up.
Post by: Maxim on October 16, 2008, 07:39:44 am
Post by: JonLeung on October 17, 2008, 02:27:32 pm
Looks like I may have 2-3 more hours of available time every weekday pretty soon...that's 10-15 more hours a week, which is pretty significant.
(But I'm still hourly, so that's 10-15 hours (or rather, 15-22.5 hours when you consider overtime is time and a half) that I'm NOT getting paid... >_<)
Post by: JonLeung on March 04, 2009, 11:25:18 am
But of course I'll think more about this April 2 or later, as I said elsewhere. I would like to discuss the hows and the whos at about that time.
Post by: Maxim on March 04, 2009, 12:54:29 pm
Storing the info in the files and not having a database at all is... crazy. You'd have to load and parse every file on every page view!
One thing you might look into is using a framework. Either an existing image-oriented CMS (might be tricky, they'll be designed for photos and you might not get the listings you'd want), or a website framework like Ruby on Rails or CakePHP. All you need then is a developer.
But free developers are very hard to find. Occasionally someone will come along and volunteer but then disappear soon after. So ultimately the "whos" are the toughest part. If you have time you can learn to do it yourself...
Post by: DarkWolf on March 04, 2009, 02:47:24 pm
Post by: magicbay on March 04, 2009, 03:10:42 pm
1. I'd like to see the contribute section updated where it would be easier for someone to post maps that they have, have found or recieved from other resources.
2. Have a website links page to post links from other websites containing maps or info about a game.
3. Keep the forums up and running so the members can post requests and other things there.
that's about it for the moment.
More later.
Post by: JonLeung on March 05, 2009, 07:55:52 am
For the most part the changes we're hoping for are those that would make the site more aesthetic and easier to navigate. Also, perhaps changes that would make things more cohesive, like tying in the forums to the main site to make it easier to comment on particular maps or map sets or mappers, for example.
I'm not about to change the (admittedly still unwritten) policies regarding contributions. Perhaps I will get around to writing out contribution guidelines (revamp or not), but I still don't believe anyone should be contributing maps they they didn't assemble themselves. It's so much easier, not to mention proper, if people only submitted what they put together.
If you like someone else's work and think perhaps the creator doesn't know about VGMaps.com, it would be better to encourage them to submit them here themselves than for you to submit them on their behalf, because then how do I know that they actually approve, or even know, so then I have to email them for permission, and etc. I spend enough time dealing with submissions as they are, as well as other emails regarding VGMaps, that I don't believe I should have to deal with that.
As for links? Well, that's what the forums could be for. But personally, I would not endorse or encourage the use of the forums for that. Sorry, you wouldn't go into a McDonald's and show everyone the latest Wendy's menu. So I don't really want people to come to my site to be encouraged to go somewhere else for maps. (Yes, I know some atlas pages have links, those are old ones that I will eventually remove... >_>)
Fear not about the forums, as I hope for increased integration with the rest of the site, they will continue to run, and at a greater capacity than before. As I said, I hope there could be a way for someone to click a comment link that appears with each map (or map set or mapper or something) and have that automatically generate a topic on the forums (or go to an existing one if someone has commented already). Sounds tricky. Even if that can't be done, I would certainly be encouraging the use of the forums, so they're not likely to go away.
I encourage you to keep coming up with ideas, magicbay, but be aware that not everything that everyone suggests will make it onto the short list.
Personally, I'm dreading the revamp as much as I want one. It would be easy to just not do one, but it would be hard to disappoint myself and others. And with the increasing amount of time I have to dedicate to VGMaps (or perhaps the increasing time spent in my "offline/real life" which decreases my available VGMaps time), a streamlining of SOMEthing is inevitable anyway, so why not take care of it sooner, right?
I digress. My point is, a revamp will be nice, but it's not going to have every bell and whistle imaginable, but I hope it will have some.
Post by: magicbay on September 17, 2010, 12:39:32 pm
I don't know if this is a good idea but if it's deemed a good idea to include in a future update, then i look forward to it, but if it's a bad idea for the update, by all means, disreguard this idea and this topic.
I'd like to suggest this idea to all members and adminstratrors alike. Maybe a poll could be put up to see what everyone thinks of this idea?
Thanks.
Post by: Peardian on September 17, 2010, 02:16:22 pm
It's not a bad idea, it's just probably not very practical here.
Post by: DarkWolf on September 17, 2010, 02:44:16 pm
Post by: magicbay on September 17, 2010, 06:40:32 pm
I didn't know the current maps were already compressed as far as they could go to save on bandwidth space.
Speaking of bandwidth space and out of curiousity, how big are the servers for the site? I mean no harm in asking about the servers. I'm just curious about them.
Post by: JonLeung on September 21, 2010, 10:27:57 am
It will have to happen, for fear of being antiquated, but whether it's soon or later is dependent on a lot of things. Namely, the things going on in my life (as well as my own video game addiction... >_>).
The two biggest concerns to be addressed are navigation/loading (seems "all the games on one page" format is unpopular) and the time it takes for me to update (I hope to just rename and upload the files and have them auto-sorted with all the relevent info, instead of typing it all manually). More complicated things such as integration with the forums have been mentioned, which are very nice but probably not priority.
I don't know that I would ever allow one-click downloading of archives for my maps, but most likely not as I want people to come to my site themselves, as ultimately the site depends on the ad revenue, which is dependent on actual visitations. Ads would also get an overhaul or rearrangement, but they would still have to be present.
More likely, I would make minor changes over time until I can find the time to implement an overhaul.
I thank everyone for their patience, and I hope no one is seriously irked at my slowness to implement things. Truly, the person that would benefit most by upgrading is myself, as I get the feeling new visitors don't "get" the layout of the site and get turned off, and then my site doesn't grow as much or as quickly as it could.
One day, one day.
Post by: bustin98 on September 21, 2010, 10:58:46 am
Anyway, it would be fairly to make a more intuitive way to navigate the maps. A search function can be added, too. Imagine wanting to see all maps of 'Mario' or 'Sonic' in a single list, no matter the console. The hard part would be renaming the images and making the text files. Who knows, maybe it wouldn't be too bad, take the existing tables and extract relevant data into a new file...
That would make adding new maps easier, too.
Post by: Peardian on September 21, 2010, 11:31:17 am
Post by: Maxim on September 22, 2010, 03:56:00 am
- writing it myself (I am a professional software developer - but it never got very far, because I have to work)
- getting help from interested third parties (they always disappear after a few months with little done)
- using "platforms" (Ruby on Rails and clones - still way too much to learn)
In the end, what I've ended up with is a wiki engine, modded to not look too much like a wiki, with a few customisations to make it a bit more seamless. There are generally various plugins/extensions/whatever to wikis to extend them if the base doesn't suit. Personally, I don't like MediaWiki and find PmWiki to be simpler (no DB) and nicer to extend.
So anyway, http://www.smspower.org/ is the result. However, it's deliberately hard to download a bunch of images :)
Post by: DarkWolf on September 22, 2010, 07:25:09 am
That said, I don't think it would take too much effort to build a site based on a few core scripts and some XML files. This is very similar to bustin's idea, but uses a better format for data storage.
You could have a directory structure like:
/webRoot
/images
/maps
/nes
/game1
/game2
/game3
/genesis
/game1
/games
/nes
kidIcarus.xml
metroid.xml
/genesis
kidChameleon.xml
consoles.xml
The XML files for the games would look like:
<game>
<logo>path/to/some/file.png</logo>
<name>Kid Icarus</name>
<map>
<file>nes/kidicarus-level1-area1.png</file>
<author>Some Guy</author>
<width>800</width>
<height>900</width>
<group>Level 1</group>
<name>Area 1</name>
</map>
<map>
<file>nes/kidicarus-level1-area2.png</file>
<author>Some Guy</author>
<width>800</width>
<height>900</width>
<group>Level 1</group>
<name>Area 2</name>
</map>
</game>
Maybe you have an XML file that lists all the games for navigation within the console, or maybe this list is generated by a script automatically, could go either way. I could lend some time to write something like this. It wouldn't take too long and I think it would still make things a little easier for Jon.
Post by: bustin98 on September 22, 2010, 08:25:02 am