Topic: The Legend Of Zelda: Oracle Of Hours (April Fools' 2008 Project) - Brainstorming Topic

[marioman]

So, is Dark Matter going to remain the boss of the Clock Tower?  I would like to provide a reminder that Kirby's Rainbow Resort is one of your affiliates, and ANYONE coming here from that site will immediately recognize that boss.



I don't want to keep bringing this up, but I think that, if you are going to modify sprites anyway, you should use Zelda 2 bosses.  (You could just the same method that you used on Dark Matter to make the sprite top-down view.)  That way if someone does recognize the boss, there will be an excuse available.

[JonLeung]

No, (BTW, I think his pre-form is called Dark Warrior,) it won't be the finalized boss as-is.  As I said, I hope to find a real spritemaker, and if not, it'll change before the final version, either replaced or more heavily modified so as to be unrecognizeable.



41 days isn't a ton, but it's still plenty.  If we do like 2 dungeon rooms a day on average we'll have time to spare.

[JonLeung]

Aside from bosses and Essences and the clock face fix, the Clock Tower is done, so I'll reserve this space for the progress on my hourglass-based dungeon...





Don't worry about the really big floor.  The plans for the Hourglass Palace or Hourglass Shrine or whatever it's called are actually simpler than they look and sound.  It looks like there are many rooms but this won't be as puzzlish as the Clock Tower and the bottom floors will be buried in sand dependent on the time of day so in reality, I may even have fewer rooms to work with than the Clock Tower.



Okay, here are the floors proper:



First floor (central part of hourglass):



LAST UPDATED: Feb. 20

[TerraEsperZ]

JonLeung, I took another look at the clock face seen on the outside, and I'm afraid that it will be really obvious that it is fake. It doesn't respect any of the constraint of the game engine, namely the fact that most graphics use 16 x 16 tiles which themselves are made up of 8 x 8 tiles (which can't have more than 4 colors each). If anything, it would be wasteful for game coders to make a graphic like your clock face which would require way too many specific tiles to achieve its perfectly round shape. I though you should know that because it will make fooling people harder.



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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." [...] The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. - Captain Jean-Luc Picard



B*tch, meet reality. Reality, meet b*tch. - Me

[JonLeung]

Both comments are noted!



I figured the clock face might be something I'd have to work on.  And, perhaps, also in answer to your second point, you could design the Clock Tower from the outside how you see fit (I'm assuming the entrance might have the face visible), and I will adapt that outside portion accordingly.



Since we're not far enough in the dungeons anyway, and most should be self-enclosed and not too related to their entrances, I would say that you should design them all as you see fit, and the dungeonmakers should adapt to how it looks on the overworld, if there's anything to adapt, really.



The clock face (which I will change after your design) is an exception.  I think RT wanted a brief outside portion that has to be represented on the overworld.  Beyond those, I don't think anything will have an outside portion.  (The Excavation Site's supposed sneaky-area is before the dungeon so the dungeon itself is not concerned with that.)



I've started on the hourglass-based dungeon, as you can see.  I'm looking forward to it, but i'm more looking forward to the overworld, actually.  

[RT 55J]

Although the Clock Tower looks pretty good, I have to agree with TerraEsperZ that you broke a few "rules".



Anyways, I took the liberty of fixing the top floor and the clock face.



http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/3959/level5cftp3.png



Taking into account tile flippage, the new clock face only has 36 unique tiles, and I think it respects the 4 color rule.



http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=level54fap3.png



Even though it looks uglier, the fact is that the 4 color rule applies to spinner rails also; ergo, they are not transparent.

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Dot? Dot. Dot!

[JonLeung]

Okay, I understand the rule, but the clock face made black like that doesn't solve the violation of it.  I think the issue that Terra is referring to is likely the rounded portion of the clock, which creates many unique tiles.  It's actually not any fewer just because the background is blackened to a solid colour.



The spinner rails on the tiles themselves (which are only two colours more), mean that each individual tile should not be break the four-colour rule as they were.  (Even if they did, it could easily be considered a sprite layer which has some transparency (i.e. like how when Link walks over a tile, they don't turn into the same colour as him).)



I'll fix the clock, which will likely mean that it will be rather simplified, but not like that.

[JonLeung]

bustin says that he is capable of doing sprite work, but that coming up with ideas is not his forte.



If someone wants to think up general designs/descriptions for bosses that might fit in our dungeons and look like they might be from a Zelda game, please let bustin know.



Since marioman just wants to contribute ideas, that might be something for him to think about, when the dungeonmaker isn't specific about what bosses he wants.  I might come up with a few ideas myself - not specifically for my dungeons, but for bosses that anyone could use.



There should be a Gohma variant.  Just because.

[marioman]

Since marioman just wants to contribute ideas, that might be something for him to think about, when the dungeonmaker isn't specific about what bosses he wants.



Personally, I think that Zelda 2 is the way to go.  Here are possible boss locations:



Horse - Beach Cave

Knight - Clock Tower

Minotaur - Excavation Site

Snake - Hourglass Palace

Ghost - * Crypt

Mounted Knight - Temple of Light

Thunder Bird?? -  Ice Cavern



(Since the Thunder Bird is the first phase of the final boss fights, I am not 100% sure that we should use it.)



Gohma is already in Seasons.  I don't know if it would be a good idea to use him again.



That is about all I can offer.  If this format is used, that leaves room for about two or three totally new bosses.

[JonLeung]

There are mini-bosses to consider as well, marioman.  Some of them could be themed to the item found in that dungeon, but some could be pretty much anything.  (When they're only going to be in a single, static pose, you could imagine that they might have something to do with the item obtained by beating them, but then again this isn't Mega Man and it's never been necessary to relate them.)



I was thinking that the Flower Gardens is likely to have a plant boss, perhaps something like the Diababa in the Forest Temple of Twilight Princess.  Probably no harm in reusing it, now in sprite form.  It could be a Deku-related boss, anyway.



Even if we do like the Zelda II bosses, I would be hesitant to use the Thunderbird too.  (Oh yeah, did we ever define what kind of character the final boss would be?  I seem to recall bustin and Terra bouncing some ideas around.  Somehow from their discussion I imagined it was a knight whose mind is twisted by the...um, night.  Like a Punch/Counterpunch (Transformers reference) knight who looks different in daytime or nighttime and is primarily influenced now by his evil nighttime side.)



bustin may want a more definite or descriptive boss list, so give it some thought.  At least, enough for him to know what he's going to draw for us.

[JonLeung]

I started the Hourglass Palace proper, as you can see above.  The "first floor" is really the central floor, the tightest part of the hourglass.  I guess I have to find a way back up.  It will be rather simple, but I still hope to maintain the day/night mechanic.



Unfortunately we are in a really bad position, though.  Terra is dropping out of the project.



I was thinking about this on the way to work, actually...how would you guys feel if we put this off for another whole year?  Would that discourage people from doing this at all?  I've been thinking of a possible "stopgap" solution for this year which would buy us a whole twelve months to do this right.  I didn't want to have to present the question but the way things are going, especially this latest development, is really making this way too tight.



The problem is that I always felt I'd be doing the most work on this, but this is getting to be a bit much.  We have one month to go, and only two nearly-complete dungeons.  Even if it was possible to finish them and six more (I guess seven, actually) AND two overworlds, a bit more time of not rushing it would help it a lot.  And many of us expressed interest at some point, but it wasn't enough for them all to commit the time.  Does a year mean more time for us, or will that only increase the disinterest?



Comments?  Suggestions?



EDIT: I came up with a good "stopgap" solution that doesn't actually suck too badly, but I'd still like to hear comments and suggestions on this project because if we all agree that we can't do this for this year, it should still be on the plate for next year and therefore we should still continue work on it, as if there was an October Fool's Day or something.  Ideally, it'd be nice to have it done then, actually...

[RT 55J]

With Terra dropping out we practically have only three options:



1. Create a much simpler project and delay the current one to '08.

2. Finish a couple dungeons and a skeleton overworld with the excuse of "it's alpha".

3. Work without regard to our personal lives.



I personally want to "ship" a finished product, so #1 seems like a good option. However, something tells me that we're gonna procrastinate ourselves into a hole again. Either way, we're going to need to make a decision now, not later.



Anyways, one idea for a "stopgap"that I think would be pretty feasible given the time constraints would be a BS-style remake of an NES game. Contra-perhaps? I think we should avoid anything related to Zelda.

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Dot? Dot. Dot!

[Grizzly]

I also am for the option to delay this project to 2008. Seeing that April is nearing quite fast and I still haven't started and looking at all the other tasks I still have to do, I am not quite sure how I could finish that without forcing me to do it. And I don't think the result would be that great then.

[JonLeung]

RT, I have in mind a project which I think I can accomplish by myself, and I promise it won't suck too badly.



I mentioned the delay to Terra and he still wants to do the overworld now that he doesn't have to rush it.



I will speak more on this later, I'm at work right now and we're moving offices...

[TerraEsperZ]

I'm definitely interested in keeping it as next year's project. My interest has never been in question, just the amount of work needed in such a short time.



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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." [...] The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. - Captain Jean-Luc Picard



B*tch, meet reality. Reality, meet b*tch. - Me