VGMaps
General Boards => Map Gab => Topic started by: TerraEsperZ on August 23, 2010, 09:04:08 pm
-
This is another project of mine, but one that has a much better chance of being finished given how I've already mapped about half of the game. Since the whole game is basically one huge interconnected map, I've decided to separate the maps by overall location and gave them the official names from the manual. The name of the third map is still tentative since the manual wasn't really that clear about the whole "gardens" thing. Anyway, I went to great lengths to make sure that all the doors are perfectly aligned between rooms, which meant a lot of moving stuff around until everything lined up right.
As always, comments and suggestions are welcome!
Caves of the Doomed Souls:
(http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2055/solsticecavesofthedoome.th.png) (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=solsticecavesofthedoome.png)
Fortress of Kastlerock:
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6715/solsticefortressofkastl.th.png) (http://img824.imageshack.us/my.php?image=solsticefortressofkastl.png)
Gardens of Pain & Blood Gardens:
(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/9854/solsticegardensofpainbl.th.png) (http://img821.imageshack.us/my.php?image=solsticegardensofpainbl.png)
I was planning on making one huge map for the finished product, but I'm still not sure how practical it will be given the fact that there are several instances of rooms one over another, as well as the Caves of the Doomed Souls being located under everything else. Bah, that's a problem better left for later, or else I might seize t as the perfect excuse *not* to work on this further ;)
-
I love the isometricness of your current maps :)
-
Looks incredible! What's the ETA of this? :P
I'd love to see Solstice done this way, but I've never seen actual screenshot maps. (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1757313)
A run of Solstice using your maps would indeed be pretty sweet.
-
Looks incredible! What's the ETA of this? :P
A few months, maybe...? I don't know honestly. It's not so much how long it will take but rather how long I can stick to that particular project and how much free time I'll have for the coming weeks.
Fun fact: I easily found the "official" number for every room in the game which is located at address $0015, which also allowed me to determine that there was a total of 253 rooms in the game, not counting one only seen in the introduction and the final one where you no longer control anything anyway. By changing the room number at the right address, you only have to go through a door to enter the desired room provided there is a door in it for you to enter from that direction. The three missing room numbers instantly froze the game when I tried entering them from any angle.
As for a run of the game, make sure to remind me about it once I'm done because it would indeed be really cool. There aren't enough maps of isometric games on VGMaps :)
-
Hi there,
I thought you might want to know that I completed a full isometric Solstice map for my website 1UP (http://www.1up-games.com) (in French, about retrogaming). I stumbled on this forum page while I was working on mine. Here it is:
http://www.1up-games.com/nes/solstice/map.html (http://www.1up-games.com/nes/solstice/map.html)
There's some programming involved, you'll see why. I didn't exactly follow the same method as you but I think the result is pretty accurate all things considered. I never found more than 252 rooms in this game though, and I chose to remove one that was superfluous/erroneous.
I have other maps too on my site, I've been thinking of getting in touch with VGMaps for some time. Actually I think one guy took one or two maps from me, I'll explain later.
-
Wow, that is gorgeous :o! And of course, with programming it gives a much better understanding of the vertical relations between rooms with holes in them.
I... can't realistically compete with that. And everything's perfectly aligned (or at least as perfectly as the game allows) since you didn't place the rooms so all the doors are aligned vertically since they aren't meant to be.
Are you planning on submitting graphic files of this to VGMaps? If you're not, I might try and finish my maps once I'm done with my current project, but there's no way they'll be able to compete with yours.
-
No, I don't think I will submit any files for Solstice. It's better if my map stays on my site as it is and if you complete your separate maps for VGM, they look great. That way, people on the web can see two different isometric versions: one big map with floor alignment, and area maps with door alignment.
I had started like you, by putting door thresholds on the same level, initially that seemed the most logical thing to do. But after a while, it didn't feel right, so I started anew by focusing on a single plane. With this new direction I gained space and some rooms connected better.
There might be some advantages with doorways alignment though, maybe the Caves of Doomed Souls will connect better vertically with the Gardens of Pain and the Stonehedge Garden; that's obviously the flaw in my map: there are huge gaps there, while in the game you just transition from one room to another. It's because, as you probably know, the game makes no sense vertically, you can fall 4 rooms underground and come out to the surface just by climbing one.
-
Interestingly enough I've been playing around with the idea of using Javascript to control "layers" for some Phantasy Star II maps. Cool to see someone else thinking along those lines.
-
Referencing this post (https://www.vgmaps.com/forums/index.php?topic=1321.msg13525#msg13525) in your Duck Tales map thread, I already feel I have to justify one thing I had planned for my maps which might resemble something in yours.
I had no clear idea on how to make one single map of the whole game without having higher rooms obscuring other rooms under or behind them. At least being able to see a lower room through the holes in the floors is such a good idea that I feel stupid for not thinking about it, but I'm not going to imitate it. I'm still not sure how I'll handle the separations between the levels and/or the areas but I had planned on at least making a custom mini-map in the corner where the main area would look like in the game but with the lower levels aligned under them in darker colours. It's a bit like yours but only for the mini-map to get a general sense of where you're located in the overworld.
Aside from that, you mind helping me by confirming how to separate and label the various areas? Going by the manual, here are all the ones mentioned and where I would put them:
-Fortress of Kâstleröck (thanks for the spelling): I'm considering the actual castle and its three towers to be this;
-Caves of the Doomed Souls: The whole underground area under the castle;
-Gardens of Pain & Blood Gardens: Those two outside areas are located to the west, but I'm having a hard time separating the two;
-Mines of Insanity: I'm guessing they are the mines next to both gardens since the small mine area to the east doesn't exactly inspires insanity;
-Slaughter Yards: Northern outside area;
-Tower of Tears: The tower at the end of the Slaughter Yards;
-Stonehedge Gardens: The western outside area which, appropriately, has standing stones bordering it;
-Tower of Ultimate Terror: The last tower including the final room
Is that about right?
-
@DarkWolf Yeah, it was fun to use Javascript to make a more dynamic map. However, it's not something I'd be willing to do every time ! Too complicated.
@TerraEsperZ I'm not sure seeing the room below is such a good idea actually (unless you can isolate each room like I did) because you can't tell which block belongs to where. So you're probably right not to do it anyway. A mini-map is a good idea !
Haha, I made one, too, on the page preceding my main map, maybe I should have posted that before: http://www.1up-games.com/nes/solstice/plan.html
As you can see, I agree with your naming scheme for the most part, safe for a few locations:
- I assume "Fortress of Kâstleröck" is the whole area; a fortress being "a fortified place, especially a large, permanent military stronghold that often includes a town" that would make sense if it encompassed everything. The central part is the castle of Kâstleröck, with the 4 towers, or as it is put in the manual: "the four deadly towers of the main castle".
- I don't know either how it's possible to distinguish the Gardens of Pain from the Blood Gardens. Perhaps the Blood Gardens just comprise the rooms with the snake gates, on the westernmost point. Or then the Gardens of Pain are just made of the green rooms with the tree walls.
- I'm pretty sure the small area in the east is the Mines of Insanity. The description in the manual follows a direction, it goes from West to East; that would be strange if suddenly the writer came back to the West just to talk about the mines. Also, just a guess, but I think the insanity is about the enemies' patterns rather than what the player has to go through. And this is the only place where you meet those weird "Big Foot" enemies.
-Stonehedge Gardens: The western outside area which, appropriately, has standing stones bordering it;
You meant eastern, right? or else you lost me.
Now that I think of it, I wonder if the Slaughter Yards could also include the gardens after the mines.
-
Hey, I was randomly thinking about Solstice. Whatever happened (or is happening) with these maps?
-
Hey, I was randomly thinking about Solstice. Whatever happened (or is happening) with these maps?
...Do you really have to ask :S ? Some issue came up that annoyed enough to take a break (in this case, separating and naming the game's areas but also that my maps weren't that necessary since someone else did a full set already), then some other game caught my attention and I started mapping something else (Final Fantasy Legend back then, and a few more by now). I know how much that sucks, but at least I've decided to only go back to previous projects instead of starting new ones (let's see how long *that* lasts). I might come back to this project, but the way things are going, don't expect anything this year, sorry.
-
Well, time to abandon this project since Guillaume Saint-Amant just submitted his own map (https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/NES/Solstice-Kastlerock.png). I'm far from sad though considering he achieved with his map everything I hoped to do with mine, only even more so. Kudos to you my friend!
-
Now that is a beautiful map! :D
This makes me want to play the game now.
-
I've certainly heard and seen lots about this game, but I've never seriously played it. I don't know if the complete map entices me to do so, or intimidates me from doing so. It looks so...intricate. And difficult.
But then again I guess a lot of NES games were pretty tough. Looking back, I wonder how I finished some games. Like for example, I have trouble finishing the two NES Zelda games these days...maybe modern games are indeed easier and I've gotten soft...
We should also get some Equinox (https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/index.htm#Equinox) maps here, too...
-
Hi everyone, I'm the guy who made the new Solstice map. I wish I would have been able to talk here sooner, but I had problems registering on the forums. The system kept telling me that "I was a spam", falsely, and I ultimately had to get Mr. Leung to create an account for me. He did it Tuesday actually, but I've been delayed by external events since then.
So, first, I'd like to say that I'm glad to hear good words from you people. Namely:
TerraEsperZ, I know you are an excellent mapper and you deserve my respect for these Solstice prototypes you posted 2 years ago. In fact, I am impressed by what you managed to do using only a raster graphics editor. I am kind of sorry I obsoleted your work, but I feel better now that you said that you are "far from sad". Also, that I managed to do more than what you hoped to do with your map makes me somewhat proud. Thank you.
Peardian, I saw what you did with Ocarina of Time and Super Mario RPG; your technical prowess is sound. To me, your good comments mean even more because they come from you. So, thank you as well.
and Mr. Leung, you told me by email that it was an "awesome submission". I know you have a lot you can compare with, so I humbly and gladly take your word for it.
Now, I'd like to say a few words about my approach.
Back in March 2005, I wondered why no isometric maps of Solstice existed. So I decided to give it a go and, to be honest, I failed (and understood why no isometric map existed :)). I had just too many difficulties, especially with the inconsistent height of the game and rooms above others. Also, fitting it together was a puzzle incredibly too time-consuming. TerraEsperZ knows what I'm talking about because he is stuck like I was back then. (He did make it much further though).
I had mostly forgotten about this project until recently when a series of events led me to trying again. And with new scholarship and new software knowledge I acquired over the years, I knew that a Solstice map might have been possible. Actually, as you just saw by yourselves, I did manage to be successful this time.
What made this map possible is a vector editing software: Inkscape. Everything being "objets" makes the whole thing much easier to manage. My source file contains the equivalent of 1519 layers (because each object works like a layer). By grouping objects by rooms, I had 382 groups of objects (252 rooms + other elements). (I attached a small outline view of the map to show this.) Using an axonometric grid superimposed with a pixel grid and object snapping I was able to quickly iterate on the position of rooms. Also, with the translation tool, I could enter integer pixel values to move groups of rooms in certain directions.
I estimate the total amount of time it took to over 200 hours.
- ¼ to rip rooms from the game and draw transparency (because not all black should be transparent!).
- ¼ to arrange rooms in the densest configuration.
- ¼ for annotations and shadows.
- and ¼ for the rest (compass rose, item list, legend, area names and credits).
In this regard, if someone thinks it could be useful, I might make a small tutorial for similar maps.
One of the things I like about Solstice is how, after entering a room, you can understand how to solve it just by looking at it. I wanted my map to allow this too, but you lose temporal and gameplay information by taking frozen screenshots. So, I've put a lot of care into annotations so you know what exactly will happen in each room. The presence of such information improves the usefulness of this map a lot.
That's about what I wanted to say for now. I'll say a word about Equinox to conclude since you ask.
As much as Solstice is an excellent game, Equinox ruins everything about it. I hate Equinox as much as I love Solstice. In Equinox, your character moves painfully slow, the camera is too close, there is no in-game minimap, they abused the perspective so that way too many objects are hidden behind others, the perspective is sometimes impossible to understand and that makes jumps pure trial and error, some doors (not secrets, doors that are necessary to progress!) are invisible and you need to hug every wall to hope to find them, conveyor belts don't have a specific graphic so you never know when a block will move you and in which direction (at least Solstice shows an axis), conveyor belts are much faster it's almost unfair, jumps are often near impossible, combat is somewhat fun actually but farming bats in later areas gets really boring, your character moves too slowly to be able to react in boss battles so you have to learn their patterns by trial and error, beside a few tracks the music is generally much less memorable than Solstice (especially the EPIC 3min intro Solstice has), and if you thought Solstice was hard then you should know that Equinox is -frustratingly- hard...
For all the perspective problems, I have no idea how to make a map of Equinox look good. So I won't try at this time. Feel free to do it, but my opinion is that Equinox doesn't deserve to be immortalized with a map.
-
Fascinating. I experimented with Inkscape a few years back trying to convert an old sci-fi design of mine into vector graphics, but I simply didn't have the patience required to get far with it. I must admit that seeing what you've accomplished with it shows just how powerful a tool it can be.
I'm just really impressed with the level of care you put into this map with all the shadows, stats and everything. I can never concentrate long enough on a single game to uncover all these little details. Once I'm done with the layout, bosses and items, I'm just happy to be done. And as for the shadows, I often find myself unable to deviate from the game's original graphics out of some need to preserve the "purity" of the map and yet, you've shown here that you can make even a good looking game appear even better when you dare a little. That, and it makes the whole thing much more legible.
You've also managed to get all the rooms in the same image, something I just wasn't able to do because I tended to compact everything as close as possible which didn't leave me enough space for the rooms with multiple floors. Also, since I was using a raster program (Paint), moving anything around would quickly because a huge pain whenever I changed my mind about room arrangement.
Seeing new mappers come up with such incredible work using more advanced programs and ripping techniques makes me envious because it seems to me that the maps I make often take a long time to finish and the results are almost always "adequate" at best. But I can't be mad or jealous when the community as a whole gets to enjoy superior creations. I just hope you'll stick around for a while and keep dazzling us with more maps and, maybe, help the more old-fashioned mappers like me get with the times :).
-
I just hope you'll stick around for a while and keep dazzling us with more maps and, maybe, help the more old-fashioned mappers like me get with the times :).
Unfortunately, I don't currently have any other map project I'd be willing to undertake. I did Solstice because I absolutely love that game, I thought nobody had done it (my mistake: I didn't know about this thread at first) and I was attracted by the unique technical challenge it would offer.
That being said, I'll gladly stay around in the forum to share what I learned from doing it.
Seeing new mappers come up with such incredible work using more advanced programs and ripping techniques makes me envious because it seems to me that the maps I make often take a long time to finish and the results are almost always "adequate" at best.
Let me tell you, for most games you wouldn't benefit from vector software because stitching screenshots together is still done most efficiently with a raster program. Even then, I know stitching is a very long process. Unfortunately however, I don't know how you could make stitching any more impressive than what you are doing because the standard for it is perfection :-\. What makes a map stand out is the little extras like the next stage criteria you included in your Little Samson maps. This shows how the finishing touch is very important. I think you understand.
Now, speaking of efficiency, I do have some advice for you. Knowing you only use "Paint", there are two features common in other raster software that would save you time and I recommend learning about them. You'll find them in many raster programs but if you wonder which program to use, I recommend GIMP for the simple reason that it's free.
- First: layers. In games where the background and foreground don't move at the same rate (parallax), it's best to rip them independently. Then you just have to put them one on top of the other. I bet you already work like this, but with layers if you need to move the background only or if you need to correct something in the foreground, you can do this a lot faster.
- Second: grids and snapping. Because games often use tiles of 8x8 or 16x16, you can set up a grid of that size and then when you move things around they snap nicely together when you get close to what you want. It saves time because you can align things perfectly without having to zoom in. Also grids are visual guides very useful to align anything else.
With these two things, for instance, if you are mapping Super Mario Bros and you want to add a mushroom over a question mark box to identify the contents, you can take your mushroom sprite from another file, paste it in and then it takes 1 second to align it correctly with grid snapping. Then if items are in their own layer and you realize later that you messed up (lets say a coin goes there instead of a mushroom), you can erase the mushroom without having to "repair" the foreground/background because it's still there behind the item you erased.
Now, back to vector software, to put it simply the only real advantage it provides is the ability to change your mind quickly. (It's like layers but with more layers and the possibility to group them.)
Also, grids are available in there too. Additionally, Inkscape has a nice thing called axonometric grids (http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL_v14/html_es/Snapping.html#Grid). It's useless for regular maps but if you check the link you'll understand instantly how it helped me align Solstice rooms. (Trivia: In Inkscape, the default grid angles for x and y is 30° but I had to do a bit of trigonometry and adjust them to "the arctangent of ½" (about 26.565°) because this is the precise angle of "1 unit vertically, 2 units horizontally". This was done to have perfect pixel alignment.)
You've also managed to get all the rooms in the same image, something I just wasn't able to do because I tended to compact everything as close as possible which didn't leave me enough space for the rooms with multiple floors.
I too compacted everything at first (while keeping a minimum of one tile of black around rooms for aesthetics). For instance, when I was doing the main castle and wanted to fit the basement of the NW tower, I had basically two choices. Moving all the rooms of the north side to the north or all rooms of the west side to the west. I tried north, wasn't pretty. I tried west, much better. It made the main castle more square shaped than rectangular (which looks more like the real topology). Trying both took only about 5 minutes. It gives you an idea about the efficiency gain.
Some other things were much harder to do however... the SE tower with both cave shafts gave me headaches! The east area of the caves was pretty intense too! And then fitting the caves with the gardens on each side... Even though individual changes were real quick, I said the whole thing took about 50 hours to arrange. And I am aware that: while looking at the map, few people would suspect this amount of work. Cartography is pretty much a thankless job. :(
And thankfully I had a vector program. I believe it would have been impossible with a raster one. Just how long would it have taken? ???!
-
Thanks for the recommendation GSA. I'll give GIMP a try but I really hope that it manages to be as efficient as Paint to use. While it might not do much, I know every keyboard shortcut by heart and that makes me at least twice as fast as I would otherwise be with, say, Paint Shop Pro which I use solely when I need to use transparencies.
-
I like to use a combination. I put together individual layers in Paint, and then combine them/arrange them in Fireworks.
-
Hey TerraEsperZ,
Shortcuts shouldn't be a problem in GIMP because you can configure them. You could change them to match Paint if they doesn't by default.
Now, speaking of efficiency, there is a good chance that you will be a bit lost or overwhelmed at first. Just don't try learning everything at once. The first thing you should do is spotting where the Paint tools are in GIMP and maybe reconfigure shortcuts. That shouldn't be hard. When this is done, I don't see why you wouldn't be as efficient in GIMP as you are in Paint. If you're not, just tell me what's wrong and I'll give you tricks. :)
After this point, you'll probably try learning more tools one at a time. Then, you'll incorporate them in your technique and you'll really start gaining speed. And that, I can guarantee.
In regard to what Peardian just said, I use a similar combination as well (GIMP/Inkscape instead of Paint/Fireworks). My point is that I consider GIMP to be a straight upgrade for Paint. However, I don't think Inkscape is an upgrade to Fireworks but I use Inkscape anyway as I'm an "open source" junkie ;). GIMP does some of the functionality Inkscape/Fireworks does as well, so you can do fine using only GIMP, but you may add Inkscape/Fireworks to the mix in the future.
On another topic, I spotted a few goofs in my Solstice map. (Sorry about that Mr. Leung, I really thought there wasn't.) Namely, a mistranslation in the legend and a few misplaced/missing shadows. So, while I was at it, I figured I'd do some more changes to make a resubmission worthwhile. So I slightly moved a few things to make the map nicer, but more importantly I experimented with an idea TerraEsperZ spoke of much earlier: room numbers.
Something I didn't like with my map is how people needed to describe rooms to talk about them. And some aren't easy to describe... If I want to tell you about the "room with red walls in the main castle with two moving platforms shaped like >" it's somewhat impractical. Really if I could just say "room 0E", that'd be a lot more efficient. So yeah, I wanted to show room numbers somehow but I didn't want them to be distracting, and that is a fine balance. So I tried a few things, and I'm pretty satisfied with what I came up with.
So, I wanted to say, I'm not entirely sure how TerraEsperZ found out that room IDs were stored at $0015 in RAM, but that information was helpful. Thanks.
I'll let my map sleep a bit to be able to get a fresh look on it and I'll thoroughly check it again for mistakes a few more times and I'll resubmit it afterwards. (I guess I was a bit too eager when I submitted it the first time :D.)