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General Boards => Map Gab => Topic started by: TerraEsperZ on May 03, 2011, 07:43:08 pm

Title: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: TerraEsperZ on May 03, 2011, 07:43:08 pm
This is just a place holder for now to acknowledge that I *am* intent on posting a finished map sometime soon. I might be a few days, or maybe a bit more, but I'm working on it. So please nobody post a finished map set to the site before I'm done!
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: TerraEsperZ on July 02, 2011, 01:04:06 pm
Okay, I know, two months is more than a few days, but in my defence, this time I wasn't working on something else instead of doing this. Summer is simply a very busy period in terms of doing overtime at my work, in addition to having various family members visiting (as well as handling some minor family drama).

So, let's talk about the map. I'm trying something a bit more polished than usual, which always takes me a lot of time by virtue of doing everything by hand (like borders and such). I'm using coloured borders to separate the mansion's main areas to make the map easier to follow and simplify the placement for connecting lines and arrows. I've also used coloured borders for the rooms that randomly switch place with one another at the start of every game.

One thing I'm not satisfied with right now are the double arrows used in a few places where there are two doors one over the other both leading to the same room/corridor. I'd like to assume that people will understand that each door will lead to the corresponding floor in the other room (1st floor to 1st floor, 2nd to 2nd) but I'd like to know how obvious it is to you guys. I did it this way because I felt using lines going both from the top and the bottom would have cluttered the map unnecessarily. Also, you can observe that the mansion uses some non-euclidean geometry in how the West Wing connects to the East one (doors in the background should be in the foreground).

The overall layout is pretty much final, and I only have to check a few places to see if you can go back to them or not. Like I said, I'd also very much like to include a number of tips and strategies like where the items are located, which keys are needed where, as well as locations where Bobby can attack you or where you can hide form him. If I do go down this route, I'll make sure to share the map with you guys for a final proofread.

(http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5371/clocktowerbarrowsmansio.th.png) (http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5371/clocktowerbarrowsmansio.png)

As always, comments and suggestions are welcomed (but might be incessantly debated because I'm stubborn and like doing things "my way" :P)
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: JonLeung on July 03, 2011, 03:24:08 pm
Map looks great!  I'm very much interested in this game even more now.

To be honest, I got a little confused with the double-lines thing at first.  I was looking at that one room in the West Wing, and since I was just skimming/scrolling the image, I didn't really see that the corresponding rooms also had two floors.  So I thought it was a single room, and that under certain conditions, or through story progression, that green door would appear in place of where the third window is.

(Yeah, though that wouldn't make sense, if there's a supernatural element to the horror - more akin to Silent Hill than Resident Evil - then it wouldn't be impossible by the story's logic.  I recall a part in Silent Hill 3 where a room changes, even while you're still in it (the floor you passed becomes a large opening for you to climb down after you do something at some altar at the other end of the room and then turn around), and because of the forced camera perspective, you don't see it when it's actually happening, it's just suddenly open as if it had been all along.)

But then when I looked around again, it became clear to me what you meant.  Then I was thinking to make more lines snaking around things, but then I imagine it would probably become a mess, as you already said.  You could use letters or numbers or symbols by each door with the corresponding exit marked with the same letter/number/symbol, then then I guess that makes the whole place disjointed and harder to follow.  I guess I don't really have much to suggest that you hadn't already thought of.

By the way, something about that inaccessible room is creepy...

I look forward to the completed map!  Do you think I should make time to play this game one day?
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: TerraEsperZ on July 03, 2011, 04:25:40 pm
Map looks great!  I'm very much interested in this game even more now.

To be honest, I got a little confused with the double-lines thing at first.  I was looking at that one room in the West Wing, and since I was just skimming/scrolling the image, I didn't really see that the corresponding rooms also had two floors.  So I thought it was a single room, and that under certain conditions, or through story progression, that green door would appear in place of where the third window is.

But then when I looked around again, it became clear to me what you meant.  Then I was thinking to make more lines snaking around things, but then I imagine it would probably become a mess, as you already said.  You could use letters or numbers or symbols by each door with the corresponding exit marked with the same letter/number/symbol, then then I guess that makes the whole place disjointed and harder to follow.  I guess I don't really have much to suggest that you hadn't already thought of.

I might add little captions for those few lines or maybe I'll use lines for these too. I'll have to think about it.

By the way, something about that inaccessible room is creepy...

It really sounds more creepy than it really is, as you simply can't select that door at all. In the Playstation version of the game, it's simply another bedroom except that it's in ruins, but you can apparently hide under the bed in this one too. I simply wanted to show that like all the other rooms with green borders, this door can change place too.

I look forward to the completed map!  Do you think I should make time to play this game one day?

You definitely should, and try to avoid any FAQs or walkthrough aside from learning the controls and how the stress level works. Once you're spoiled on where you can be attacked and where you can hide, the fear factor goes down dramatically.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: Revned on July 08, 2011, 09:18:33 pm
I just played a bit of the game, and it seems very cool. Your map looks great. One thing though - are you going to somehow show the lights-on/lights-off versions of the rooms with usable light switches? Perhaps have two maps? It would be a shame not to be able to see the differences.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: TerraEsperZ on July 08, 2011, 11:15:55 pm
That would be quite easy since I've saved multiple versions of every room, and this map only shows the default state of each one. I haven't had time to do any more work for this game but hopefully I'll be able to soon.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: JonLeung on February 01, 2013, 11:48:13 am
This is just a place holder for now to acknowledge that I *am* intent on posting a finished map sometime soon. I might be a few days, or maybe a bit more, but I'm working on it. So please nobody post a finished map set to the site before I'm done!

Hasn't it been "maybe a bit more" than "a few days"?

640 days and counting...  :P

I hope it's not rude of me to bump this up to say I'm still looking forward to these maps.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: TerraEsperZ on February 03, 2013, 08:15:02 pm
Unfortunately, you might as well say that about 95+% of my projects. It hasn't been abandoned I assure you but I remember putting it aside almost two years ago because I wasn't able to

Come on JonLeung. Knowing me, you should know better by now ;).

But seriously, I can't really give you an estimate as to when I'll finish this, but I'm at least closer than I was two years ago. I really want to make a version of the map that could act as a walkthrough to the game and I've (slowly) become used to adding tips to my work. If you really want a map at any cost, I can push to simply polish this one a bit and send it, but seeing as I'll do a second one with the walkthrough, I would have wanted the both of them to be "in sync", although nothing's stopping me from going back to it afterwards.

Anyway, thanks for bringing this to my attention because I really have so many of these in limbo it's hard to keep track.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: JonLeung on February 04, 2013, 10:54:27 am
Well, I certainly understand the desire for perfectionism.  But if you're holding out for months or even years because of final details when you've already got something presentable, I think that could bite you in the butt.  If in the meantime someone else sends in maps, then there's that awkward scenario of: do I put up their maps when I know you were working on yours?  We can "call dibs" all we like on the forums, but if other people don't use the forums...  I don't really want to say no if someone else sends me good maps, but I'll hate the feeling knowing that someone's work will have gone to waste if there's no reason for me to keep both (especially if neither is blatantly flawed).  A more "universal" way of "calling dibs" would probably be to submit what you've got, once you can.  Like you said, you can always come back to it to add to it, fix it, etc, and if it's merely presentable but not perfect in your eyes, perhaps once it's out there more publicly, it might spurn you to perfect them sooner than if you just left them on your own hard drive, potentially forgotten, by yourself, even!

Of course there's that issue of submitting the beginnings of something and then not completing it.  I hope no one's waiting for the rest of the Totally Rad (https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/NES/index.htm#TotallyRad) (NES) or Simon The Sorcerer (https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/PC/index.htm#SimonTheSorcerer) (PC) maps that I started work on ages ago.  At this point (or even since way back when) I would be happy if someone else took them on, but the few maps I put up might be a deterrent towards getting the rest of it done, if mappers potentially interested think I would want to finish what I start (which is usually the case, or even almost always, at least with other projects in my life).

But in the case of your Clock Tower, it's all a single map, is it not?  Submitting that would be enough to fend off potential map submission conflicts.

I'm glad you're considering sending what you've got (well, because I bumped this topic :P) and I thank you if you do, but really, do want you want, it's not like I need this right this second.  If it bothers you too much to send in something less than perfect, then don't.  It's just that while there is no one else working on Clock Tower that I know of, that's not to say there couldn't be, so I'm just making a suggestion so that your effort so far won't be for naught, which might be a worse feeling.  At 1 and 3/4 years later, I think that's a fair suggestion for me to make...
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: TerraEsperZ on February 17, 2013, 06:04:42 pm
Originally posted on February 04, 2013, 05:39:49 PM

I know I suck at actually submitting finished maps. I often make fun of myself in that regard because the alternative would be to chastise myself without mercy. I know I often offer justification but the reality is that I often simply forget about these projects after taking a break for a week or more because another game will suddenly catch my fancy. I don't want you to feel like you need to "police" me to release anything but it's a good thing you do because like I said, I tend to simply forget about these for months or years on end.

In any case, I pledge to submit as many finished maps as I can by this weekend. A real, serious pledge. I hate doing it like this but as you said, otherwise most of what I do never gets seen by anyone and other mappers (deservedly) get to send in their maps. I just have my "mystery" project (it's Gradius for the NES) to finish first but it's practically done and should be posted tonight. I've at least gotten much faster at making up my mind with map headers so doing a bunch for my unfinished stuff should be pretty quick.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: TerraEsperZ on February 17, 2013, 06:22:13 pm
(http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/5371/clocktowerbarrowsmansio.th.png) (http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/5371/clocktowerbarrowsmansio.png)

Well, it's finally *almost* done. Althought it doesn't look like much as changed, a ton of little details have been modified. I've made the lines and arrows thinner, adding names for almost all the rooms as well as key/item requirements and used some pixel shadowing to hopefully make the distinction easier for double lines and overlapping doors.

I'd just like name suggestions for the rooms that are still unnamed. I don't know much in terms of building and cavern nomenclature in English so I decided to ask you guys. The room names aren't that important as they aren't official but they'd be useful in case I ever do make a second version with hints and walkthrough information and need to refer to them. the only rooms I'll most likely leave unnamed are the various hallways in the East and West Wings since I have no idea how to refer to all of them (should I use left/center/right or cardinal directions to refer to the hallways?).

I specifically need help with the vocabulary in English. For example, is "elevator stop" correct? Can I name a room "2nd floor elevator stop" or is that a mistake? Similarly, is "cave chamber" correct, because I would probably refer to the cave rooms as "1st, 2nd and 3rd cave chamber" if it is. Finally, I'm not sure how to call the exterior of the tower with the ladder. Would a simple "clock tower exterior" work, or would "clock face" or "tower wall" be better? English speakers, I need your help!
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: TerraEsperZ on February 20, 2013, 10:54:40 pm
Nobody? Nobody can spare a few minutes to correct my vocabulary/grammar? Seriously, that's all I'm waiting for before submitting this map. Come on people, I need your help  :(...
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: snesmaster on February 20, 2013, 11:22:06 pm
I would use "Cavern" instead of "cave chamber".  Lobby is the main floor where you get on the elevator typically on the ground floor.  As for elevator stops on other floors, I would call them Elevator Waiting Room.

Here is a site that gives names for Rooms in a house in English: http://www.learnenglish.de/vocabulary/rooms.htm

I hope that helps some.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: DarkWolf on February 21, 2013, 12:42:25 pm
nth Floor Elevator Access would probably work best for the elevator rooms.  Lobby (at least in N. America) usually applies to a commercial building or hotel, rather than a private residence.

Also, Cage Room you might want to call Butcher's Room or something similar, as from the graphic it looks like there's an apron, tools and a butcher's block.  The cages are for animals, probably chickens.  Although typically a room like that wouldn't be attached to the main house, or at least it wouldn't be accessible from a nice hallway like that. :)
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: snesmaster on February 21, 2013, 05:47:02 pm
Yea, I agree nth Floor Elevator Access sounds good.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: TerraEsperZ on February 21, 2013, 09:37:51 pm
Thanks a lot everyone and sorry for the guilt trip. I just really wanted to finish this one as quickly as possible. And I've decided to keep "Cage Room" if only because that's how all the guides refer to it.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: TerraEsperZ on February 22, 2013, 10:06:24 pm
Well, it's finally finished. I ended up using "1st & 2nd Chamber" for the caves since from what I've been able to find online, caverns would have referred to separate entry into the rock and these are more like 2 different chamber of the same cave system (I think). It might not be perfect but nothing is and just like in software development, you have to stop at one point and actually release something. So it's been sent and should be posted online soon.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: JonLeung on February 23, 2013, 02:27:49 pm
Well, it's up! (https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/index.htm#ClockTower)  Thanks, Terra!

Also, I'm a little surprised that this appears to be your first Super NES (well, Super Famicom) submission, ever...?
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: TerraEsperZ on February 24, 2013, 09:21:25 pm
That's because my SNES emulator of choice, ZSNES, has little to no debugging features. Also, there's the fact that removing the background always leaves black (something that BizHawk is supposed to correct but the last time I tried a build it kept crashing the second a ROM was loaded) *and* the annoyance of the SNES almost always putting garbage in the last scanline of the display which makes capturing the full map difficult without additional tools. I would have loved to map more SNES games, believe me.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: snesmaster on February 24, 2013, 11:45:31 pm
Here is a link to the latest interim build of BizHawk.  I have been using it to map Super Mario World, and so far it is working pretty good.  The main thing to do to prevent crashing is to not open up the graphics debugger window while the emulator is paused.  As long as you stick to that it should work good.

Here is the download link to the version I'm using.
http://code.google.com/p/feos-tas/source/browse/trunk/BizHawk.zip

Also there is an on going thread at:
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13464

So you can offer your input and suggestions for the emulator there.  They have already added several of the features I have requested to make mapping games easier.  I think it will help if they know I'm not the only person that uses their emulator to map games.  So please request some good features from them.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: JonLeung on February 25, 2013, 08:44:29 am
Ah, all I meant by that is that considering how long you've been around, how many maps you've contributed, and how often you've been honoured for the Maps Of The Month (if that counts for anything) - and it looks like you've been sitting on more maps than some people have even ever sent in - it just surprised me that this is your first map for one of the most popular atlases on the site.  Not a good or bad thing, just a statement of surprise, that's all.  But hey, looks like Rick/snesmaster has helped you out, so guess it was good that I mentioned so, and that you responded as you did.

Now that I see the full map, I am again intrigued about seriously playing through this game (if I can find the time).  I don't know if having 16-bit graphics makes things more or less scary.  On the one hand, the (now) low-res graphics probably make it harder to make some things out, but on the other hand, it probably lends more to the imagination and can make things freakier than they might appear.  I think if there are still-shot cut scenes (are there?) they can be scarier than full-motion video because there's more time spent seeing the detail in a particular shot.

But then again, if my experience with Silent Hill (I've played the first four games) is any indication, music and sound are really what makes things scary, not so much what you see.  And then of course, what you don't see is scary too, and since this game has a stalker...wow, I don't know if I'm psyching myself up to play this or scaring myself out of it.  It's interesting to note that even if I were to wuss out and depend on your map, that I can't expect some rooms to be open due to random chance, adding to the intensity when I really need to find a hiding place, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: TerraEsperZ on February 25, 2013, 10:55:04 am
Don't worry. I was simply expressing some frustration because the SNES has great looking (and often really fun) games but the emulators available have traditionally been rather useless in facilitating the mapping process. Several of the maps awaiting release are actually for this system (though not all from good or even average games) and I have ideas for a few more games but a lot depends on the usability of BizHawk (or similar emulators).

Coming back to Clock Tower, it's definitely a stressful game the first few times you play thanks to the partially randomized room placement and the adrenaline health system where the more scary stuff Jennifer (the player) experiences, the more tired she gets and the greater the chances of tripping while being pursued and not being able to fend off the threats when they attack you.

There are also several different endings (some good, some bad) depending on how much you learn about the Mansion's inhabitants and the events leading up to the game and which of your friends live or die. If you really want to play, I suggest reading a guide simply to understand the controls and the health system because they are a bit confusing, but nothing more. And yes, there are a couple of still and partially animated screenshots during major events and they are pretty effective combined with the (sadly limited in terms of songs) music.

A fan remake of the game has been in development for several years called "Remothered". It seemed to greatly expand on the original game as well as doing its own thing judging from some early previews posted online. Recently however, it's been revealed that the game will be sold commercially with 3D graphics which means that the story and characters will be changed a bit (understandable) but also that the game might not be as effective in 3D compared to the early videos showing an interesting mix of video capture for the sprites and edited photography for the background with a lot of colored lighting effects.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: nandoticon on December 06, 2013, 01:56:20 pm
Great work with this map.
I'm developing a simple RPG to play with friends, and record a Podcast that mixes our play with the game review.
Basically, I'm using your map and putting tons of annotations on it to guide me through the RPG session.
I can send you this version with annotations, but basically spoils every aspect of each room.

Thanks for the amazing work with this map, I've just registered to this forum to comment that.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Clock Tower (SNES)
Post by: TerraEsperZ on December 08, 2013, 11:22:04 pm
Thank you for the kind words :). I've been thinking of making a version of the map with annotations that would have shown all the dangerous and safe spots, but I was both afraid of leaving things out and worried about stupid things like fonts and not making everything look too cramped, and so I left things as is.

I hope your RPG sessions ends up being fun (and scary)!