VGMaps

General Boards => Map Gab => Topic started by: Trop on October 14, 2013, 05:21:55 pm

Title: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: Trop on October 14, 2013, 05:21:55 pm
I know you don't accept maps made from hacks or mods but I've been playing these Super Metroid hacks and since there are no guides for them I'd like to make a simple map.  Before you say no consider this; one large map with all the hacks on it.  I'd use the in game maps just marked up.  I haven't actually started on something like this, I just wanted to see what you say first.
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: JonLeung on October 14, 2013, 09:10:57 pm
I don't know...

I'm sure any full-sized map of any GOOD Super Metroid hack would be impressive...but that opens a whole can of worms if I were to start accepting maps of any hacks.  I wouldn't want to crowd up the main listings, and if I put a separate listing, well I don't know, that's going to get messy, isn't it?

Just because someone has the tools to remap an existing game, doesn't make them a good game designer.  And even if one were to justify that some hacks are good, where does one draw the line for what to accept and what not to, because there are certainly a lot of hacks that aren't good.  Would anyone really want to accept maps for potentially tens of thousands of only slightly-modified games?  At least with games that have come out mass-produced on cartridges in the era of the console it's intended, even when those games are crap, they're recognized as being part of an official library, and are much more relevant than even the best hacks.

I've always thought the point of hacking a game (or making a fangame or something along those lines, like VGMaps's April Fool's jokes) are more meant to teach the amateur gamemaker about how to make games, than for serious release and recognition.

I don't wish to discourage you if you think something is worth mapping.  There may be other sites willing to post it, but at this time, VGMaps.com won't.  I suppose that'd be an idea if someone wants to make another screenshot map site - one dedicated to hacks and fangames.
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: Revned on October 14, 2013, 09:56:30 pm
Didn't you used to have a section on the site for random sprite rips or fan creations? I guess it was almost entirely your stuff, but maybe that would be a good place for something like this. I can't seem to find it anymore though

EDIT: aha, found it. It's not linked from the homepage: https://www.vgmaps.com/Other/OtherStuff/index.htm
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: JonLeung on October 15, 2013, 06:54:40 am
Yes, that is an underused section which has mostly my stuff, like random wallpapers, collages, and a couple videos.  (And Animal Crossing textures, mostly made before the North American release of the GameCube game, so most don't even have palette recommendations...)

At the moment that page still has links to it on the main directory page, but I've been thinking of delinking it further or just removing it.  It's just kind of random and a little sloppy.  They were things I made when I had the time, and most were pretty early on in the life of VGMaps so I figured there wasn't any harm in diversifying the content.  Now with tens of thousands of screenshot maps, the value of that one page has diminished, if it had any value at all.  I've seen that the Metroid Fusion ending collage of Samus Aran has gotten lots of links to it, but overall that page and its contents would not really be missed.

So if I'm not really interested in continuing to host my own stuff derived from recognized games, you can guess I'm not planning to host stuff derived from hacked games...even if they are maps.  Also when there are still lots of games yet to be mapped - including games that have been requested on these forums - it feels like the time and effort could be better spent there.

But hey, I can't tell you what to do or not do.

So if you really want to map a hacked game and you want to share it here, you could always have them hosted on some image-sharing site and provide links to them (or upload them) in a forum topic here.
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: Trop on October 15, 2013, 10:35:12 am
Never mind then.
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: JonLeung on October 15, 2013, 04:54:46 pm
Trop, now that I read your original post more carefully I see you mention "all the hacks".  I misread that as being a full-sized map for a single one.  Assuming you don't mean literally "all" (aren't there a lot?), which hacks in particular do you mean?  I don't know if I'll have much time lately (*coughPok√©monYcough*) but maybe I should stop being a stick-in-the-mud and see what the fuss is all about.  I recall someone made another topic about Super Metroid hacks too (about playing them through as a group).  And even if I myself never get around to it, it might be interesting for anyone curious to know what hacks piqued your interest.
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: Trop on October 15, 2013, 06:03:37 pm
Oh no I mean literally ALL.  Every hack.  One image.  And yes the play through thing was me.  I just finished Metroid Colors today and while it was crap if you look at the list of tiny reviews I posted you'll see there's quite a bunch.

However, as a test to see how I would do this I whipped up the basic template for Metroid Exercise, a spectacular hack, and it took a few more hours then I thought.  And that was just the blank mini map.  I intend to piece together at least all the blank mini maps into a single image for now.  After that... we'll see.
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: Trop on October 17, 2013, 02:01:13 pm
Prototype.  Not really, here are just a few of the assembled hacks.  There are a lot more.
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: TerraEsperZ on October 17, 2013, 03:36:07 pm
Hey Trop. Sorry for hijacking this thread, but you're apparently not checking your PMs on a regular basis. So, yeah, I sent you a PM two days ago. Please reply :)
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: Trop on October 17, 2013, 04:27:26 pm
Oops, how did that slip by me.  No, go right ahead.  I stopped doing Shantae because somebody else posted a link to some site with a full map set for the game.  I figured they were already done.
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: JonLeung on October 17, 2013, 05:03:34 pm
Two things:

1. How can one map "ALL" the hacks, because over time, won't there always be more?  Wouldn't there already be a hundred or more?  Or is there some "Super Metroid Hack Council" who determines which hacks are worthy?

2. How the frick do we NOT have Shantae maps yet?
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: TerraEsperZ on October 17, 2013, 05:50:58 pm
How the frick do we NOT have Shantae maps yet?

I've been motivated, after participating in the recent Kickstarter for a new HD Shantae game (Shantae: Half-Genie Hero (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1236620800/shantae-half-genie-hero)), to try and map this game (and actually play all the way through). As I mentioned to Trop in my PM, I've already made a Lua Script to move around the map at will but wanted to be sure he hadn't been working on it behind the scene before doing it myself.
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: Trop on October 17, 2013, 07:31:16 pm
"Super Metroid Hack Council": http://www.metroidconstruction.com All the hacks are there even ones that aren't at romhacking.net.

And not just that, version numbers could also render a map redundant.  In fact several hacks so far have said things like ver 3 or ver 4.  I could of course add new hacks by author, or just keep one image to a certain number for hacks, but for now I'll just compile the roughly 80 hacks there are.  Just mini maps, it's not that hard with enough cheating.

Right now these maps are more or less useless, they don't even cover doors.  I thought in the end I'd wind up doubling each one in size and marking items or item requirements with different colored dots.  In fact I even thought it would be fun if everybody here helped me by doing that if they chanced to play one of these hacks.  I'd be like a big group project, each person adding something else to slowly complete the whole thing.
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: Trop on October 20, 2013, 08:28:51 pm
Well nuts to that.  I just did a test and marking the maps legibly is impossible without making them huge.  Which defeats the original purpose.  I guess I'll just collect mini maps for now.
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: Trop on March 19, 2014, 08:38:00 am
For Super Metroid's 20th birthday I wanted to make a basic set of all the mini maps for its roughly 180 hacks.  I didn't get that far but I got a lot.  Happy 20th SM.
(http://galensnature.com/Tank/pha/minimaps.png)
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: TerraEsperZ on March 19, 2014, 09:39:26 am
Impressive. I hope you didn't play all of these all the way through to capture them all though, that would be insane... You know, seeing how many hacks there are and knowing the average quality and intent behind most hacks (cranked up difficulty and the need to master every known move and glitch to make any progress), I wonder how many of these are actually *fun* to play like the original game...
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: Trop on March 19, 2014, 12:10:43 pm
I did play every hack in my mini map set, and a bunch more.  In fact I've played through about 75% of them now and dipped my feet into all but seven.  ALL hacks -ALL- require stunts you would never use in Super Metroid.  You more or less live by wall jumping and mid air morph ball.

Most hacks are minor mods with about double difficulty.  About 10% of hacks are brand new fun games.  About 10% of hacks are unplayable or incomplete glam hacks.  Another 10% are unbeatable torture level difficulty hacks.

Glitches aren't that frequent but when they do come up about half of them break the game entirely.  There's a lot of design flaw too.  Necessary items can be too well hidden.  Bad room order, sticky spots, flawed balance or no balance, silly graphics, and worst of all way too many life force doors.

Almost all hacks fail to dish up the kind environment SM Samus fits comfortably into.  It's almost as if every hack requires Spider Ball and never gives it too you.  Each hack seems to be better suited for some other platform game character who never shows up.  Still it's hard to wreck Super Metroid completely so I never stopped playing even when things got annoying.

As for my recommendations:
Eris - New planet, new everything
Oxide - like a strange Metroid based dream
Digital Cube - A fun puzzle
Phazon - play as Dark Samus
Ice Metal - SM meets Paladins Quest
Zero Mission - SM rebuilt into Zero Mission
Airy - Zebes yet not Zebes
Exercise - smooth outside the box design
Pantheon - the right way to rearrange Zebes
Stardust - short and sweet
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: TerraEsperZ on March 19, 2014, 05:06:44 pm
This shows just how important balance is when making a game. The best games, those that are remembered as true classic, have incredibly fine-tuned balance and that's something that not even professionals get right all the time. By the way, I never did finish playing Super Metroid: Stardust (although I was pretty far along)...
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: Trop on March 20, 2014, 07:52:13 am
Stardust boiled down to one long hallway.  If you really want a flaw free SM hack that still has all the parts you'd expect go with Exercise.
Title: Re: Hey Jon, map accecptance question
Post by: Trop on May 18, 2014, 08:18:01 am
I've done it!  All Super Metroid hacks played and mapped!  I am officially a Metroid nut!
(http://galensnature.com/Tank/SM%20minimaps.png)