VGMaps

General Boards => Map Gab => Topic started by: GHS on April 30, 2015, 07:48:52 am

Title: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on April 30, 2015, 07:48:52 am
I'm thinking about doing a Marble Madness 2 map compiled from a video since there is no emulation.
I have attempted to contact Scott Evans the owner of the MM2 machines through his youtube site. So now I'm waiting for a reply.
If anyone know a better way to contact him let me know.

What do all of you think, wast of time or worth a try?

I found a youtube vid of some levels that I compiled in to 3 maps. the video was low quality.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: TerraEsperZ on April 30, 2015, 09:49:37 am
Marble Madness is a game that I loved so much (the NES version that is), I was always sad that it was so short, and that it never got a sequel. I know game players always craved innovation, but I feel that the concept could have made for hundreds of fun and challenging levels.

Regarding the sequel, it's yet one more unreleased game that is, to this day, lost to the public. It would be great if you got a reply that could lead to a ROM dump being made public or something like that. At this point in time, nobody benefits from a prototype remaining in the hands of a single person (except that person I guess). I wish you luck in getting a positive response.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: JonLeung on April 30, 2015, 11:44:52 am
My question is, why has it not been emulated yet?

If it seems unlikely that it will ever be (though why, I don't understand at the moment), and this is the only means we have of seeing the maps, go for it.

This would probably not be categorized as either "ripped" or "original", but rather as "captured", like in my Resident Evil maps (https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/GCN/index.htm#ResidentEvil) which were probably among the first maps I ever made, but as you can see, it was kind of a crappy capture card.  Its categorization is a minor point, though.

I suppose any exposure, little as it is, would add more to the overall global interest level in this game (however much or little it currently is), that it might eventually lead to finding a dump and/or a more direct means of mapping it.  Though if it is ever cleanly mapped, I think I would have to replace these video captures.

Remember how a few years ago, TenguMan mapped a few stages of Mega Man 9 by recreating tiles that he saw from gameplay videos before the game was released?  Impressive as his recreation was, his maps were eventually replaced by Revned's cleaner direct rips (https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/Wii/index.htm#MegaMan9).  That's how I imagine these would be, but until that direct means is possible, I can certainly accept captures.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on May 03, 2015, 06:17:50 am
so far no answer :(
I just sent an email to the CAX (California Extreme "Classic Arcade Games Show") since Scott  is a member and take his machines there.
Lets see if they will get me in contact with him.
Wish me luck! :-\
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on May 07, 2015, 04:08:17 am
I got a reply from CAX. they said they would foreword my message to Scott but still no answer. It will probably take some time because they say he is very busy.

In the meantime I will update the maps for Cadash arcade.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on May 22, 2015, 05:16:24 pm
I got my answer and its a no. It seems the guy is too busy and does not have time to do a video capture of the game.
So I guess that's that.the project is over. :(
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on May 23, 2015, 05:05:25 am
Quote
My question is, why has it not been emulated yet?
the answer I got was this. "The reason is simple:  IP.  Access to unreleased games requires a level of trust on the part of many key sources, and maintaining that trust is important.  If something comes with a restriction, it has to be honored."
That's IP, patent, copyright laws (aka monopolies) for you. 
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: Maxim on May 23, 2015, 08:19:55 am
That's rubbish. Collectors of very rare stuff like to know that nobody else has it, they feel that copies devalue their trophy. Collectors of hardware often look down on emulation (as in, they will not play unless they have an original physical copy) which doesn't help.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on May 24, 2015, 11:31:18 am
I know Maxim. It sucks.
Even if it never gets emulated at the least a full play through video and map would be enough for some one to make a port of it.
I don't think that would compromise his word to his sources or devalue the game.
Would it?
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: FlyingArmor on May 25, 2015, 11:29:12 am
That's really silly. One of the main reasons so many people cling to copyright is so that they can (in their minds) maximize their revenue. The company that developed the game has not and probably never will make any money from it, so from this stand point, not allowing it to be copied isn't helping that company benefit monetarily at all.

Also as far as value goes, a work gains value the more it is spread and enjoyed by people. Value is something that people give to things, whether it be an object, book, video game, etc. It doesn't have it intrinsically. An unpublished manuscript to a book that's locked up in a safe some place doesn't have all that much value to people who don't know about its existence, does it?

Having the game data copied doesn't take away from the physicality of the game machine. That game is a one-of-a-kind, unique, physical object that no amount of digital copying could ever hope to rob away from it.

So if we really have to wait 100 or so years from now for the game to finally enter the public domain, and  within that time span it turns out that the data has decayed and it utterly unrecoverable, then we will have lost a unique piece of video game culture forever, and it will be solely because of that one man's stubbornness in adhering to a field of law that is losing relevance with each passing day.

I could go on and on, but I'll leave it at that. :)
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: Maxim on May 25, 2015, 02:39:27 pm
Most likely it has been dumped, for "value protection" purposes, by a "trusted" person. It will eventually come to light, but maybe only when the current owner needs the money or dies.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: FlyingArmor on May 25, 2015, 09:02:41 pm
Yeah, that's possible too. Either way, it ain't helping us any.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on May 26, 2015, 10:45:17 am
While searching for the MM2 I read on line that the rom was dumped and in the MAME wip drivers and not released, but that's all hearsay.
If only some one could go to CAX and record a full video play through to put it online. Maybe I might be able to compile a map of it. Maybe, but the video quality would have to be very good.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on May 30, 2015, 06:37:46 am
it just occurred to me. If he is too busy why not have a trusted friend do the video capture? I mean what would they need a PC  TV-tuner and arcade supergun? How big of a deal is it to get a video capture of the game and put it online? From what I was told he did it before (but in poor quality).
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on May 08, 2016, 12:48:37 pm
I have decided to try one more time with MM2 by trying to confirm the rumor about it in being in the  MAME wip drivers by contacting the mamedev team. And if so asked them for the games maps.
Lets see if they reply.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on June 01, 2016, 03:15:44 pm
So far no response from mamedev.
Any ideas? or do I call it quits.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on June 12, 2016, 11:01:02 am
I finally got an email from MAMEDEV and the rumors are false. They dont have the rom or wip drivers.
so no luck there.
 
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: TerraEsperZ on June 13, 2016, 11:53:25 am
Well, you gave it a nice go at least. It's just frustrating to know that something unique like this game, a literal piece of videogame history, might end up being lost forever simply by virtue of someone hoping to make big bucks by keeping it exclusive :(.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on January 09, 2020, 07:54:19 pm
New info, it seems that their are 4 MM2 arcade machines to exist acording to lost media archive and guru's rom dumping news as well as some forum rumors. 2 by scott, 1 possibly by YouTube user phantomdj, and 1 assumed to be owned by developer Bob Flanagan.
I tried to contact phantombj but got no response (one his video of MM2 he says "I DO NOT OWN NOR DO I HAVE ACCESS TO THIS ROM".
Now I am trying to fined out how to get in contact with Bob Flanagan, but its proving difficult.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on October 28, 2020, 04:11:50 pm
Found anather person that has it. Vector Initiative arcade auction. just sent them an email, so lets hope this works.

Vector Initiative #Hangarcade at facebook
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: TerraEsperZ on October 28, 2020, 06:49:12 pm
That's real gaming archaeology work right there!

I wish you good luck in getting access to such a rarity.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on November 01, 2020, 06:13:38 am
NO luck. all i got back was "Message not delivered" "The recipient server did not accept our requests to connect." I cant seem to fine a way to get in contact with him. https://forums.arcade-museum.com/members/visionik.71337/
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on November 06, 2020, 05:28:53 am
There is some good news. I reached out to some one (reliable source) in the mame team and he has confirmed that It is dumped and in a private build of MAME "that's a given". Kined of like how primal rage 2 is. I guess the game is secured from what ever happens to the hardware.
So when it will be released is up to the rom owners.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on August 16, 2021, 11:05:56 am
more info on MM2
I talke to the guy in the video (Scott, no not scott evans). He is doing FPGA duplicates of MM2 to "get it into more hands". Any more than that he does not comment. MM2 is its own unique hardware and thats all I got from him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZuNhFp0-Ak&t=8080s
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: JonLeung on December 05, 2021, 10:25:46 am
If you didn't notice the update today...
https://vgmaps.com/Atlas/Arcade/index.htm#MarbleMadnessII (https://vgmaps.com/Atlas/Arcade/index.htm#MarbleMadnessII)

Yes, we have maps of the final version of this game now.  I was sent these maps from an anonymous source.

I think I can share some details that they shared with me about the game, and rewrite it all in my own words, so you can't analyze word choice and sentence structure to identify the mystery Marble Madness II mapper... LOL.

---

In the original test build, the marble turns into "Marble Man" at the end of the level.  Afterwards, all references to "Marble Man" have been removed, so this should just be known as "Marble Madness II".

Level details:

Oasis: The palm trees throw coconuts at you.

North Pole: The snowmen throw snowballs at you, and the icicles fall down repeatedly whenever you pass by.  There are also more than are visible on the map.

Sunburst: The dark clouds get angry faces and strike you with lightning when you go under them.  Shooting stars fly at you at certain areas.

Wacky: The frying pans smack you, and the forks jump on you, both of which shatter you.  The red squares are where jack-in-the-box characters pop out.

Deep Sea: This is underwater, with bubbles constantly floating up.  You fall really slowly, so you can roll off higher drops and still survive. Eels come out of the holes on the wall, and the stingrays can land on you and eat you.

Wierd Walls: Yes, "Weird" is misspelled in the game.  Fists pop out of the walls to stun and crush you.  Acid leaks out of the walls at certain points.

Silly: Unlike most other levels, here, you go backwards, from the bottom to the top.  New here are purple birds that fly out at you at certain points, which kill you if they hit you.

King Of The Mountain: Another bottom-to-top level.  The Grinch-looking characters throw rocks at you, and are very accurate.  If you roll into them, they jump off the ledge and land on their face.  The iced ramp at the end is very difficult to scale, especially with the time limit.

---

So, at last, this mysterious game has been mapped.  I guess there's still intrigue that the ROM is extremely hard to come by...  But is it at least satisfying that we now have the maps?
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: TerraEsperZ on December 05, 2021, 08:11:51 pm
To whoever mapped this game, good job!

Although there are a lot more maps than in the original games, they appear to be more generic instead of all being really unique.

But more than anything, I'm just really intrigued by all the secrecy...
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on December 06, 2021, 09:55:58 am
Big thanks to Anonymous for offering them up.
Just to be clear what version are the maps? Alpha, Marble Madness 2 or Beta, Marble Man.
Is there anymore info on the differences between versions?
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on December 06, 2021, 10:09:37 am
Neverminde. I see that the maps are of Alph version looking on youtube.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: JonLeung on December 06, 2021, 11:27:08 am
Since I've been linking this post in a few places, here's the link to all the directly-extracted maps of Marble Madness II again:
https://vgmaps.com/Atlas/Arcade/index.htm#MarbleMadnessII (https://vgmaps.com/Atlas/Arcade/index.htm#MarbleMadnessII)

As for the changes, I was also sent a PDF of a document (originally on Atarigames.com) detailing the changes between the Beta version and the final version.  (In a previous message they also said Alpha and Beta versions are reversed.)  I have made the PDF into an image which you can read here:
(https://vgmaps.com/forums/images/MarbleMadnessII-Changes.png)

They also included three other images which I didn't put up initially, since they aren't maps, but since there is interest around this game, I might as well include them here.

First is the unedited title screen.
(https://vgmaps.com/forums/images/MarbleMadnessII(Cancelled)-TitleScreen.png)

Then we have the Maze Select screen, as you can select which to start on.   (Note that it shows that "Wierd Walls" is indeed spelled that way...)
(https://vgmaps.com/forums/images/MarbleMadnessII(Cancelled)-MazeNames.png)

And we have a screenshot of fireworks upon reaching the goal in the final maze, "King Of The Mountain".
(https://vgmaps.com/forums/images/MarbleMadnessII(Cancelled)-KingOfTheMountain-Fireworks.png)

"Anonymous" said it's okay to mention that they have a special MAME build for this, and have had it for 18 years, but actually forgot about it for a while, almost expecting it to have been publicly released by now, but apparently not.  They managed to play an actual Marble Madness II machine at California Extreme (an annual arcade game event in San Jose), but it was not appealing, as it is the one with joysticks instead of a trackball.  As for mapping this using MAME, they had to make a cheat for infinite time in order to so.

Also, further clarification... the anonymous person not only knows about and follows this topic, but it was thanks to this very topic that they discovered VGMaps.com in the first place!  I am sure that is exciting for George, who we can all thank, for without this topic, we might not have these maps today.  And a new mapper friend, who we may see more from, though you may never know when we do.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: TerraEsperZ on December 06, 2021, 08:05:45 pm
Those original development notes are a really neat find.

I've always enjoyed reading about how movies and video games evolve over the course of their making.
The early pitch, the overly ambitious but ill-defined ideas, the grandiose and wild concept art... and the final, often much more limited and conventional result resulting from the various limitations in terms of time, money, feasibility, early customer feedback.

Thanks for the hard work Anonymous, whoever you are 8).
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: JonLeung on December 28, 2021, 09:39:14 am
On Christmas Eve (just a few days ago!), this video was posted, and now we can see this in action!:
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: GHS on December 31, 2021, 05:39:26 am
I wonder if this is by Anonymous too.
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: JonLeung on May 25, 2022, 04:45:57 pm
Over the last couple of days, several videos of Marble Madness II have appeared on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=marble+madness+ii&sp=EgIIAw%253D%253D

I was actually alerted to it when reddit user JohnnyEnzyme tagged me in mentioning that VGMaps.com has maps of Marble Madness II.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MAME/comments/uwfwdh/marble_madness_ii_arcade_has_been_recovered_i_put/

The Marble Madness II interest is up again now because David 'mamehaze' Haywood put together a MAME driver for it...



And nirvgorilla has a link in the description of the video below to where you can download this...  I guess that means the intrigue is over?  Especially after it gets included in an official MAME build?



I suppose there's still the "Marble Man" version somewhere, if we want the mystery to live on...
Title: Re: Marble-Man Marble Madness 2
Post by: JonLeung on May 26, 2022, 07:41:14 pm
I got it to work on my custom Arcade1Up machine, so that confirms it is legit.
(https://vgmaps.com/forums/images/MarbleMadnessII-Arcade-1.jpg)
(https://vgmaps.com/forums/images/MarbleMadnessII-Arcade-2.jpg)
(https://vgmaps.com/forums/images/MarbleMadnessII-Arcade-3.jpg)