VGMaps
September 01, 2014, 04:22:24 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?  (Read 11782 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JonLeung
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2829


« on: January 13, 2012, 10:03:03 PM »

This topic is for the discussion of my article here:
Did Flip Industries Really Create "Super Kid Icarus"?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 10:15:36 PM by JonLeung » Logged
alucard
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 102


« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2012, 07:51:47 AM »

Yes it does look the same, except for the colors change of course. Since your maps were custom, I agree that it is obviously your work. Had they used NES maps it would be easy to say they came from anywhere. I dont see what the reason would be for them not crediting you for making the maps.
Logged
Will
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 570



« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2012, 09:12:36 AM »

Personally I would immediately "Accuse" rather than "Suspect" those maps were ripped off, due to, the absolute identical resemblance of tiles, number of colours and level layout. You've had many coincidental experiences with me but this is no way a coincidence to happen to use the same materials. And if you've had a taste of my map recreation of Toad Man to give the Game Gear map a more Sega Megadrive look (plus other mock map attempts), you'd know that any amateur artist can simply add backgrounds and modify little things like that vine changed from twisty to withered, even I could do a simple modification like that, it doesn't take a professional. The brown walls have a slightly darker colour than your version which is easily and quickly obtained by changing the contrast level in programs like Photoshop. Their lack of reply is the primary clue to suspicious activity.

I have a few suggestions to defend your work:

1. Check out, http://home.comcast.net/~superkidicarus/comments.html - There are no comments referring to vgmaps but if you or someone could post a comment about it, you could bring some attention to visitors and players reading the comments.

2. It would be a good idea to research and quote the exact paragraph, act and subsection of the Copyright Jurisdiction to cover the rip off committed. Unfortunately I'm not an expert in law and order.  

3. Take as many screenshots and source code as you possibly can from the Flip Industries web pages so that you compile proof of fraud before they have a chance to justify their actions by updating the web pages.

Good luck and may the dispute end neatly.

EDIT:

They do not stay faithful to their Mission Statement. Check out http://home.comcast.net/~superkidicarus/reception.html . What was it they hypocritically said? "Substantial assistance will get your name in the credits".
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 10:32:18 AM by Will » Logged
JonLeung
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2829


« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2012, 11:02:46 AM »

It's interesting that you brought up their comments page, Will.  I had debated putting it as a link to it in my article.  After all, it's a public comments page that Flip Industries made available.

I do think everyone is free to say whatever they feel (especially since I obviously have).  But I decided that if I made it too easy for readers to directly go to Flip's page immediately after reading my article, I might appear to be endorsing a war, which I am not.  If you (singular, individual) want to tell them what you think, go ahead and contact them, via email or their comments page or however.  But by no means would I personally arrange or request anything that looks like an organized barrage.

I feel that I've said what I want to say in my article.  So if you want to help, you can mention a link to my article wherever you think it'll be heard.  But be mindful that it doesn't appear as spam.

Spreading the truth is all I want from this, as it's really the only thing I can get out of it.  But if I look like I'm spamming or inciting a war, I'd be setting myself up to lose respect than to gain anything that would be worth it.

There's standing up for oneself, but then there's being annoying.  If I've demonstrated that Flip Industries is in the wrong, I don't need to shove it down everyone's throats.  Or maybe I'm just getting weary of this - that article took a long time to write! - though I maintain my position.

But I do thank you for your support, and for your suggestions, Will.  And I agree that their "mission statement" is ridiculous.
Logged
alucard
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 102


« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2012, 03:57:55 PM »

You know what, their website is hosted on a free Comcast page. Had Geocities still been around they would have probably used that instead. I would not even worry about these guys
Logged
DarkWolf
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 621



« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2012, 07:43:51 AM »

It could be possible that Flip never really did see your maps.  It's entirely possible someone else lifted your tileset and distributed it somewhere on the internet as a "Super Kid Icarus" tileset or maybe even a "Greek" tileset.  And then Flip used it. Even if they did use knowingly use your graphics, I don't see the big deal.  You said yourself in the article that the layouts are based on the original game and you only "chose" the tiles from other commercial games.  You didn't cite or credit the graphic designers of the games you used to construct your tileset (except in the article, which I assume didn't exist until this became an issue), so why would you expect Flip to credit you?

I'm not trying to beat you up or make you feel bad.  It's a stupid Flash game, just let it go.
Logged
JonLeung
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2829


« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2012, 08:19:04 AM »

Oh, I agree that it's just a Flash game.  That's why I'm not going to great lengths to pursue this, and my article was meant to be my final say on it.

But as for the crediting, with regards to your comment, I still don't see how hard it would have been for Flip to credit me, if they at all knew I made the custom maps, as I have provided evidence to now, even if they somehow didn't know then.  Yes, the tiles came from elsewhere, but it still took my time and my effort to select them.

As an example, let's say we all live in a community that includes an apple orchard.  I'm planning on making an apple pie.  You happen to be picking apples.  You spend the time, looking at each tree, picking out the apples you think are the best.  I end up making an apple pie with your apples, that I share and everyone else likes, because of the apples you chose, but I never mention once that you helped.

Now, perhaps a strange example, but I'm demonstrating that the "picking" is effort.  Sure, I could have at any time picked the same apples myself, but I just took yours.  I was the lazy guy who took your effort for granted.  How would you feel?

I know that, in your words, "it's a stupid Flash game", and you are only demonstrating that there is always room for the benefit of the doubt, but what really gets me going is the audacity that, if they somehow never saw my maps, that they wouldn't bother to give me some kind of explanation.  I gave them gentle reminders for a response, that I doubt could have been as pestering, and I even said I was willing to negotiate the details, and so I think I deserved something.  If they had at all responded, I might have had more patience and not gone to such lengths as to write that.  Maybe we could've worked out how they could've put my name in there and then we all would have been happy.

I admit that I may have been hasty in posting on forums and the like immediately after seeing the Flash game, before Flip Industries had a chance to respond that only time they did, however, if I didn't get my say in, well, you know how the Internet is, if something's older than a day it's already considered old, and if it's a week old it might as well be ancient.  So if I didn't get my say in right away, no one would ever notice or care.

But I guess the real truth is, just like I said in my essay/article/whatever, VGMaps.com may still be nameless to most people, so they wouldn't care much even when they know who really selected those graphics.  I was thinking to myself just before this whole Super Kid Icarus situation, that I needed to do something to get VGMaps' name out there.  This controversy (if it is even large enough to consider warranting that term) might have slightly raised viewership, but probably not much more than could be attributed to random chance, so though I initially thought I should "watch what I wish for", if I really wanted to increase viewership by considerable bounds, it's going to take a lot more than explaining the truth about the apparent laziness of an amateur Flash game maker.  Though the truth, and not hits, was still my primary goal of writing all that.

Besides, it's quite likely that writing my article also brought even more attention to their game.  See how nice I still am to Flip Industries, directly or indirectly?  And still no credit.  You can't blame me for getting a little irked.

(Also, I hope this also discouraged people from taking and (mis)using my The Legend Of Zelda: Oracle Of Hours and Metroid Dread maps.)

But yes, I will eventually let it go, and refocus my energies, perhaps to actually making VGMaps.com more known.  I'm not sure what to do in that regard (other than a total site redesign), but I'm sure I'll figure out something if I could devote the time/energy to it.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 08:23:53 AM by JonLeung » Logged
JonLeung
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2829


« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2012, 06:09:52 PM »

Got an email the other day I forgot to post here, so here it is now:

Quote
Hi Jon,
 
I read your story about your stolen Kid Icarus map. Whilst I no doubt everything you've stated is truthful, as it's 'reused' work that you didn't create, legally it's all grey area and you probably can't do much. And as the people who designed the game are unwilling to cooperate, there's not much else to do.
 
As stolen stuff is a common problem, several things can be done:
1. Copyright traps; intentional mistakes that are barely noticeable, e.g. a misplaced or miscolored pixel
2. Hidden watermarks; write text somewhere with a color so similar u can't read it. Only way to find it is using the fill tool. More advanced methods can be done using photoshop.
3. Hidden digital watermarks. These are very advanced things which can be done that make it almost impossible to know it's there.  Unfortunately, if it's a <256 color image it cannot be hidden so easily. Many websites have tutorials for ways of doing this.
 
Some image compressors may remove methods 2 & 3.
 
If you happen to do anything similar in future, would strongly recommend using one of the above methods.
 
Look on the bright side, your maps were so good looking and convincing that someone actually decided to create a game out of it. Under the circumstances, it would have been worse, they used the original fictional game name and they barely altered the art. So proving it's yours is much easier. Plus it is getting positive feedback, which is not very common for flash games.
 
Hopefully your page about it will go up the google ranks of a super kid icarus search.
 
Regards,
 
A VGMaps contributor.
 
P.S feel free to post this on the forum as an anonymous comment

Thanks for that, anonymous VGMaps contributor!
Logged
DarkWolf
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 621



« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2012, 07:18:21 AM »

Just to clarify I wasn't saying that Flip should in no way credit you, and that you didn't deserve some mention, but you can't really expect it with this type of thing.  It's like sprite sheet.  People rip sprites from commercial games and put a "please give credit to xzy" text on their sheet.  It's nice if you make a Flash game (or something else) with that sheet and credit the person who ripped them, but you can't really expect or demand it.  It's copyrighted material that you don't own.  Call me cynical, but I have just come to expect that this sort of thing happens on the internet.

I'm glad you got that e-mail. I should have probably made my argument more along those lines.  Grin

As far as getting VGMaps' name out there, you really need to work on your SEO (search engine optimization).
Logged
JonLeung
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2829


« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2012, 05:25:22 PM »

I get what you're saying, no worries, DarkWolf.

Now, I've also seen another "Super Kid Icarus" from a DRX Gaming, which I didn't bother looking too deeply into as I thought I heard it had been cancelled, but if the YouTube preview thumbnails are any indication, they also used my custom title verbatim.  Say what you want about the use of recycled tiles, but that's definitely my own title there.

I get an email from someone defending DRX Gaming, when until just now, I had never mentioned anything against their project specifically:

Quote
Sent: Fri, Jan 20, 2012 3:09 PM PST
Subject: super kid icarus is not yours!!!! READ THIS EMAIL!!!!

DRX Gaming made this game way before your did and have the link below for that so just accept it and go cry or sumthing.

thanks asshat....

[link removed]

DRX GAMING NOW AND 4EVER!!!!!

Link removed because I'm not going to bother looking.

I'm not going to "accept that" because I know what I did back in 2007, which I've already beat the dead horse about with proof using archive.org's Wayback Machine.  I recall seeing DRX Gaming's game as copyrighted 2009, which I don't see how that qualifies as "before" 2007.  And, though it goes without saying, I also think people who "defend" their claim without providing any information and then just insulting don't really have a valid claim.

I guess it can be a natural reaction for some people when they get overly defensive...but it's suspicious when I haven't even said anything to them...

Really, guys.  Really?  This is what the world is coming to?  Anyone else want to try to disavow what I know I did, and look silly by doing so?

EDIT: Wow, looking at their YouTube videos, they not only used the same title, they also used the same tiles for the dirt, without even adding the grass that Flip Industries at least did.  Talk about blatant.  And it seems the person who emailed me defending DRX Gaming is still going on with their emails, and yet without support, just claiming I didn't make mine first.  Do people really get their kicks arguing - even when they aren't even the slightest bit convincing and already know in their hearts that they are wrong?  What on earth do these people want?

EDIT AGAIN: Well, whoever this guy is, he just wants more publicity for DRX Gaming.  I'll debate whether or not people need to see how embarrassingly ridiculous his later emails are.  They are pretty bad.  It's pretty sad when people can't debate facts so they think persistence with insults and false accusations will win, and even while there's not really much to "win".  And since this was originally between me and Flip Industries, DRX pretty much just walked into this on their own.  In a world where tens of thousands of hours of entertainment are produced every day, people are still bored enough to do dumb things like this...sheesh.  I guess I'll "stop feeding the trolls", because I have better things to do with my life than argue something that I already know the truth about.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 04:22:11 PM by JonLeung » Logged
snesmaster
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 180



« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2012, 05:20:33 PM »

That sucks, I remember when you made those maps back in 2007 and you even gave me credit for using my maps from the original NES game as a starting point when swapping out the tiles you found from other 16-bit games.  I don't see why they don't just give you credit and a link to your site.

In a few cases I have had people steal maps I made and use them for projects they have done.  Every time I contacted them, they apologized and had no problem giving me credit and a link back to my site.  I wonder why Flip does not extend the same common courtesy to you.
Logged
JonLeung
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2829


« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2012, 09:52:09 PM »

I was recently alerted to this topic at Pixel Joint, which is interesting enough that I might soon add it in an update to my original article...

http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14265&PN=1

Until it was edited, the original post was Flip Industries attempting to recruit artists.  After the post made by Chesu, which not only references my article but found a number of counts of Flip Industries misusing work from deviantArt users, Flip Industries probably gave up and didn't want to face the accusations which is why it has been edited into that Rick Astley "RickRoll'd" video.  Real mature.

It is sad that Flip Industries hasn't learnt anything.  The artwork wasn't there a few months ago, back when the one single email I got from Flip Industries clearly shows that they were aware (yet not really acknowledging) of my accusations, so their audacity is clearly boundless when the trouble I raised then didn't stop them from blatantly taking more original work, as in artwork, which is more serious than just tile-swapping.  This is purely ridiculous.
Logged
TerraEsperZ
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2093



« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2012, 10:14:23 PM »

Once a thief, always a thief, at least when it comes to intellectual properties. This kind of scum never learns and the relative anonymity of the Internet makes it way too easy sadly. At least more people are starting to realize the kind of people they are.
Logged

Current project:
-Changing constantly, but at present a bunch of Sonic stuff

Pending project:
-Way more than is healthy
Will
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 570



« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2012, 10:40:00 PM »

Congratulations for this effort against those fakers and phonies. I hope those who accused you Jon of trolling, eat their words. Flip Industries is definitely going to the dogs. The probability that the website will shut down is predictable. May your works be safe and viewed by honest fans.  Wink

By the way I recently noticed, Flip Industries truly is immature. That's cos the industry's flipping mental.  Cheesy
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 10:52:18 PM by Will » Logged
JonLeung
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2829


« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2012, 10:01:49 PM »

I updated my article, the added portions are coloured cyan.  I might edit it further if my points aren't clear, as it is getting late and I might not be thinking sharply.  Tongue  But really, a picture is worth a thousand words, and so with all those images, I'm not sure how much clearer I really need to be.

If you read the Pixel Joint topic fully, it's actually sort of amusing.  However, what isn't funny is that Flip Industries is stealing hand-drawn artwork, not just having the same tiles replaced.  I thought this was behind me, but the emails I've been getting from artists has encouraged me to bring this up once again.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!